[MattDamonSpace]

A heavily unionized tech industry over the last 30yrs would be an interesting counterfactual.

IMO the ability for individual employees to negotiate for themselves is a positive? As is being able to get rid of bad performers

Unionization would hurt the startup ecosystem, at least at the margins, no?

[mywittyname]

This is a flawed argument, the current system gets rid of good performers all the time, and we have evidence of wage suppression, so employees don't get to negotiate on fair terms. You just get stuck in your pay band.

I agree it would be a good counter-factual, but I think the differences would be more around industry stability. Particularly, I think the ability for employees to push back against historical threats like off-shoring would have made the industry more appealing to younger people looking for something stable, and prevented this weird cycle of labor shortages causing salaries to explode, unqualified candidates pivoting to the industry using low cost training solutions (bootcamps, shitty masters programs), then companies failing to deliver on initiatives because the people they hired are poorly trained.

If we had 30 years of steady growth in CS education, then we'd have more experts in the field, doing a better job at executing. And it would likely cost companies less in wages as well. There are many industries where incredibly talented people make fairly modest salaries while producing world-changing products.

[kelseydh]

Enrolment in computer science skyrocketed five-fold from 2009 to 2024. Dropped 15% since, for obvious reasons.

[mywittyname]

Sure, but when I went to university (2008ish), the local major university had cut their CS program entirely due to lack of enrollment. So that's likely measuring tough-to-peak growth.

Also, statistics usually merge all computer and technology related majors into a single bucket.

[KaiserPro]

> IMO the ability for individual employees to negotiate for themselves is a positive?

I keep hearing this, but FAANGs don't allow individual negotiations. You are banded, like you would be at a union.

Also you're assuming that unions would be able to, or want to block the firing of bad performers. Since the bad performers would also hurt the bottom line, and therefore your pay.

Unionisation might hurt the startup as it would stop certain levels of exploitation (ie not being able to ask people to work for free in exchange for shares that will be worth nothing.)

[ryandrake]

Even Non-FAANGs have banded, bounded comp. I remember discussing a compensation increase at a smallish, medium sized company, and was given the usual "The book says the comp for your role is between $X and $Y, and you're at $Y." They even showed me The Book! Like, ok so you're just willing to lose me over this stupid book then? (Narrator: There were willing to) I dipped over to FAANG for a pretty nice increase. I guess FAANG uses a different book...

[hilariously]

It's just a larger book, yes. No matter how much value you deliver the most important value is that you are Smaller than the Big Guy, and at google he makes a lot more money.

[KaiserPro]

> I guess FAANG uses a different book...

Pretty much, you can use level.fyi to work out what someone is being paid.

[9rx]

A union is merely a group of people who agree to work together for a shared benefit. That doesn't mean that there cannot be individual negotiation, nor does it mean you can't get rid of bad performers. There is no reason why it would need to hurt the startup ecosystem either.

If the tech workers wanted those things they could make it so, but they already could have made those things so already and didn't so...

[MattDamonSpace]

Isn’t Collective Bargaining a cornerstone of the Union pitch?

[vharuck]

Take the National Basketball Players Association as an example. They represent NBA players and collectively bargained for a minimum wage, benefits, and processes to address grievances with management. NBA players aren't all paid the same, and they don't have identical terms in their contracts. The union sets the floor.

[abdullahkhalids]

For a more down to earth example, my graduate school student union also only negotiated the floor of pay and benefits. The compensation for graduate students varied easily by 50% over this floor, even students in the same department.

[9rx]

Yes, but that does not preclude layering individual bargaining on top. The collective bargain could simply be something like "you may not track employees", while still leaving each individual employee to negotiate the compensation they seek. If the workers would rather be completely hands-off they could defer all negotiations to a negotiator, but, again, the workers make up the rules. It's whatever they want.

[daveshistory]

It would be a hard model to pick up and move over and just drop into place. The trades that have union halls for carpenters, electricians, etc., aren't normally working in anything as unstable or dynamic as tech startups. If I try and think back to how things were thirty years ago I don't think it really applies. Unions are for big shop floors where bosses could fire you on a dime and replace you and then you're SOL. Skills in high demand 30 years meant fine, you could just go work somewhere else just as easily. Who expects to be in the same place for 35 years anyways?

[mrguyorama]

>IMO the ability for individual employees to negotiate for themselves is a positive?

Why in the world are you convinced that you as an individual have a stronger bargaining position than the entire labor pool?

How in the world does that work in your head?