[meszmate]

Europe gets romanticized way too much. Healthcare often means months of waiting and very hit-or-miss doctors. Bureaucracy is worse, salaries are lower, and there are plenty of stupid laws and corruption too.

It is probably better if you value slower life, more vacation, and working less. But it is not some obvious upgrade over the U.S. Just a different set of problems.

(I'm hungarian)

[dgellow]

To add some nuances, as someone living in Germany, it’s correct you might have to wait months for a medical appointment, but not for emergencies. Psychiatrists, psychotherapists are generally overbooked and you likely have to wait 3-6 months (sometimes more), which isn’t great if you are in a bad place. However if we are talking about breaking something, you can get everything happening quickly and efficiently.

Personal anecdotes:

I had to wait 6+ months to get an actual diagnostic when I had a pretty bad depressive episode. Everybody around me shares that same experience. The eventual diagnostic (adhd with high anxiety) didn’t cost me anything. And I pay 15€ every 3 months or so for my meds.

When I got a lumbar disc herniation that required urgent medical intervention I got brought to a hospital immediately, got MRI scans, multiple days in hospital with an assigned physiotherapist, bunch of prescribed medication. Everything was done extremely way quickly. The whole thing, including the ambulance, drugs they injected to be able to move me, scans, hospital bed, crutches, and medication cost me around 40€. And something like 30€ for the month of physiotherapy that followed.

I have a high incomes and am self-employed so pay a bit more than 900€ a month for the public health insurance, which is the maximum here (the fact we have a cap instead of a pure percentage of income doesn’t make any sense to me, I should be paying way more). Insurances manage everything automatically.

Agreed that German doctors are really hit or miss, though that has been the case everywhere I lived

[47282847]

What German health care providers don’t tell you is that you have the legal right to get faster psychological assistance, and they have to cover the costs of a private therapist if you can show that there is no availability in your area. They try to make the process as ugly as possible, and I understand that typically you will not have the capacity to deal with that in times of need, but with some more awareness around this topic maybe you can find a friend or a social worker to assist you with that. See eg https://www.kassenwatch.de/ In all major cities, there are dozens of nonprofits that quickly will help you for free; it’s more that those in need most times don’t feel comfortable asking for that kind of help.

Personally, my life improved considerably when I decided I’ve had enough of it, and that spending around 100€/h on my mental health, plus attending group therapy which you can find for as low as 20€ for a full weekend (for example IoPT), was the best quality decision of my life. I understand not all of society is in a position to spend that kind of money, but think and be honest on your own spending and valuation. I know people that easily spend that amount on drugs or booze or hobby activities that don’t really address their mental health issues. If I hear you complaining about not finding a therapist but I see you driving a 50k€ car, or spending 2k€ on “vacation”, that’s on you.

Yes, public health insurance could be better than it is, but it’s not without alternative. The private therapists I work with have zero waiting time, and anyone can get an appointment within a week or two with them. You can spend a long time complaining and waiting, or you can invest in yourself.

It can feel life threatening to go to a therapist. And I get how people are not ready to admit to others that they’re fucking scared, and ashamed. But they should at least admit to themselves that that is the real reason, not the waiting times. The people I know that actually finally found the courage to take the step suddenly discovered that for some reason they actually didn’t have to wait very long. The federal 116117 assistance line used to be pretty bad but it has improved considerably in the past decade. Same for the local mental health crisis lines (“Krisendienst”).

[esbranson]

> legal

> don’t tell you

As a Wikipedian who has edited primarily on US legal systems but also Germany's ... I seriously doubt more than a handful of non-attorneys have any clue about the actual workings of the German legal systems.

The biggest issue is of course the lack of codified laws and regulations. (Note that collections like the Gesetze im Internet are more like US Statute Compilations. If you don't know what the Statute Compilations are and have never heard anyone mention them, case in point.) The Swiss SR is odd man out of course, even though it's unofficial it's still usable. US states and states like Germany do however follow similar court reporting practices, e.g. court case decisions are only selectively published, so we have similarly little insight into how laws are actually implemented in practice. (The US federal government is better, but its impact on everyday people is incomparable.)

[dgellow]

Thanks, that's great info to share. I remember trying 116117 and reaching out to a bunch of places and not having any luck with it in my region, but it was just after Covid, anything assistance related was overwhelmed at that time

[fundad]

In the US, most specialists are booked out 6 months. It seems impossible to find a mental health care provider that accepts insurance and is taking new patients. You can get prescribed mental health drugs from your primary care physician.

That's just my experience and I have health insurance provided by one the world's richest employers, I pay 4,318.86/yr in premiums for our family with a multi-thousand-dollar deductible.

Maybe if I was a very rich person in a poorer area that still happens to have a hospital, I'd have an easier time scheduling healthcare but I'd have to make that choice over moving abroad.

[ahtihn]

My experience in Europe is that healthcare is expensive but efficient, bureaucracy is fine and salaries are very high. Guess which country I live in.

Point is "Europe" is way too diverse to generalize like that.

[caldarons]

this feels like it would be true only in scandinavian country, switzerland or luxembourg

[dilyevsky]

Switzerland or Luxembourg.

[maltemalte]

Switzerland?

[swatcoder]

> It is probably better if you value slower life, more vacation, and working less.

That's exactly it, right? Self-sorting among those suitably positioned to emigrate and who have tastes more aligned with European norms?

That sounds more like pragmatism than romantacism.

[hhh]

I moved in 2024 (to NL) and i’ve never had better experiences with doctors or dentists. Extremely quick and simple, and insurance billing is a breeze.

[TheCleric]

I would take healthcare I have to wait a bit for over healthcare that could cripple me financially thanks.

[hdgvhicv]

Last time I used healthcare in mainland Europe (Austria) a suspected broken finger it was 25 minutes from waking in to having the scan and the splint and being on my way. This was free with a GHic.

In the U.K. I had a problem and phoned my gp, went in 2 hours later, 10 minutes, walked out with a prescription.

In the US I had the same problem, spent 2 hours, had my blood pressure taken 4 times, and eventually had the same prescription. That’s cost me $2,000.

Now for chronic stuff perhaps it’s different. My mother told Her gp whe hd a problem with her shoulder and Gp said she didn’t need a CT scan, so she paid $300 for one privately which was booked in for a few days later. The results said there was nothing wrong. Maybe in the US it’s different and cheaper?

[esbranson]

> spent 2 hours, had my blood pressure taken 4 times ... cost me $2,000.

I'd hate to see what they billed your insurer.

[schreiaj]

Good news, in the US you don't need to choose... and by need, I mean you probably get both.

[dwroberts]

I imagine a lot of people are happy to just have access to medical care that doesn’t bankrupt them to be honest. Especially if they have children with medical conditions, or chronic conditions of their own etc.

[waterTanuki]

Are you making a judgement on the entire European continent as a whole from your experience in Hungary or have you actually lived in a few countries across Europe to come to this conclusion?

[bitwize]

Still better than the US system.

[mindslight]

Bingo. "months of waiting and very hit-or-miss doctors" is my average experience in the US. The financial aspect is a lightning rod because the setup is so patently absurd (fake prices and nobody knows anything until afterwards!), it's easily documented (phone pic of a fraudulent bill), there's more bandwidth to post online when you're merely dealing with the billing hell, and of course in the true American spirit there are a bunch of entrenched interests looking to make a lot of money from taking the abstract desire for change and using it to push concrete policies that enrich themselves. But the actual care being provided is its own hell well before. The individual workers in the system do snap to attention when things get real, but those times are basically the exceptions that prove the rule.