[shin_lao]

I think you're falling in to the "silver bullet" trap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet

Basically, making reliable software is hard. Changing the language doesn't bring anything. There are a lot of tools to make sure your C/C++ programs doesn't have obvious errors. The problem are non-obvious errors, and these errors exist in all the languages, with different forms.

Another way to put it: "You cannot reduce risk, you can only replace it with another".

[wladimir]

I agree that nothing solves all possible problems. But it's a huge jump from "there is no silver bullet" to "changing the language doesn't bring ANYTHING". Likely, it is quite a bit more subtle in practice. Preventing "obvious" errors (which really aren't always that obvious) that safe languages could minimize is already a great start, as many systems are rife with them.

[javert]

> You cannot reduce risk, you can only replace it with another".

I don't understand why you would say this. Is it not the case that using a language with automatic memory management (say, Python) is less risky than using one with manual memory manamgement (say, C or C++)?

There are tradeoffs (e.g. performance, having less control over various things), but they are not tradeoffs between one risk and another risk, they are tradeoffs between risk and something else.

[jules]

This is obviously not true. Language matters. Are you as productive in BrainFuck as in C++? I don't think so. C/C++ isn't the end of all progress in language design. Modern languages eliminate or vastly reduce whole classes of concerns like memory management, wild pointers, null pointers, incomprehensible template errors, etc. Some of these problems can be patched up for perhaps 30% by a post hoc static analysis, but the effectiveness of that is much less than a language that has been designed to make these errors impossible by construction. Modern languages also make lots of stuff easier through a good standard library, language features like closures & type inference, a REPL, a good IDE (the feasibility of which is also a function of language design), etc.

Sure, they don't solve the problem of magically and instantly conjuring up the program you want; nobody is claiming that. All these little things add up nevertheless.

[shin_lao]

Please read the wikipedia entry which addresses your specific concern regarding programming languages.

[jules]

I was responding to this: "Changing the language doesn't bring anything." and this: "You cannot reduce risk, you can only replace it with another", not to the Wikipedia entry. The Wikipedia entry is very reasonable, and does not make the same outrageous claims.

[shin_lao]

"Changing the language doesn't bring anything." -> This is because the largest contributor to code quality is the coder. C is already a "safe" language as opposed to assembly or even writing the opcodes yourself.

"You cannot reduce risk, you can only replace it with another" -> I just ask you to think about it, try to have an open mind about what I may imply. I'm sorry for this mysterious answer but this is typically a topic over which we could talk past each other. The first time I was told you I had the same reaction until I had the epiphany about what it really means.

[gizzlon]

"This is because the largest contributor to code quality is the coder"

Even if that's true, it doesn't support your claim.. The language still matter, even if it turns out that it's not the most important part.

[shin_lao]

Then we can only agree that we disagree. I think the language matters very little, you think the opposite.

[jules]

Your first paragraph is repeating what you already said, which is exactly what I responded to. To summarize it again: that C is high level or safe compared to assembler does not mean that other languages aren't significantly higher level or safer than C.

Your second paragraph is on the border of being condescending without any actual argumentation.