[arttaboi]

Here's an anecdotal thought: AML laws surprisingly work well to discourage offline transactions by tax-paying citizens, helping maximize tax reporting and improve tax collection. As a result, governments continue to strengthen and expand laws in that direction.

[Gigachad]

It used to be super common for many small businesses to be cash only or a 10% discount for cash. Likely the main driver for this was tax avoidance. I haven't seen a cash only business since covid.

With a dwindling number of legitimate cash users, any business that is pulling in huge sums of cash well beyond the average is going to look increasingly suspicious.

[selfhoster1312]

> Likely the main driver for this was tax avoidance.

It's not just that, though. It's common here in France for credit card operators to have fees in the 5-10% range (or 0.30€ per operation + 2% of the amount). That's why you often see signs « card accepted above 10€ », and that's why your local shop will probably not mind if you're missing 10 cents when paying cash.

[objclxt]

> It's common here in France for credit card operators to have fees in the 5-10% range (or 0.30€ per operation + 2% of the amount)

Interchange in the EU is capped at 0.4% for credit cards. Typical costs for processing are much lower than 5-10%.

For example, Adyen charges the 0.4% interchange + their fee of 0.6% and a flat 0.11€. On a 10€ transaction, that's 2.1%.

In most cases this is cheaper than handling cash. When you accept cash, you have to pay somebody to close and reconcile the drawer, take the cash to the bank (or have a security company do it for you), account for shrinkage / mistakes...it's a bit of a myth that cash is cheaper for businesses to handle, especially in places like the EU where card interchange rates are highly regulated.

Now of course, if your cash is not going the usual routes and isn't getting accounted for in the books...that equation can change.

[marysol5]

Had a conversation with the landlord of my local pub a few years back, he said he'd go "Card Only" if it wasn't for the handful of patrons that refuse to use card, couple of which are the "Cash is King" Facebook types.

And he was paying his staff under the table in cash anyway! But would still rather just withdraw from the business account, rather than having to deal with handling of customer cash every day.

[selfhoster1312]

> Interchange in the EU is capped at 0.4% for credit cards

Still clients pay much more. To be fair, the prices i remember are from 15 years ago, and now there seems to be better offers for small businesses. For example, SumUp proposes 1.75% flat (no per-transaction fee). But yes, i'm quite sure that's not the kind of fees Carrefour or FNAC are paying.

[efsavage]

> I haven't seen a cash only business since covid

Collectibles (e.g. trading cards) are still a "cash is king" market. Some dealer only take cash, virtually all of them prefer it, and offer steep "discounts" (lack of markup) for cash.

[nradov]

Probably a lot of chargebacks from kids using their parent's credit card and the like.

[marysol5]

Still lots of builders/tradies in the UK who do "for cash".

Also lots of takeaways, they'll be on JustEat/Uber Eats and cash-only in store which is a PITA. My local chippy is cash only and no-delivery. I can't find a single record for a recorded business, or health rating either!

[smartbit]

I've seen barbers before Covid not accepting cash, after Covid happy to accept cash. The Covid rules for subsidies were very strict, sometimes having to repay all as they didn't fully comply. Cash gives protection against bankruptcy due to unfortunate rules.

[dhosek]

It varies on the country. In Mexico, it’s not uncommon for landlords to want rent paid in cash (which can be a challenge in that one has to safely transfer tens of thousands of pesos from the bank to the landlord on a regular basis in a country with high crime rates), although the numbers of cash-only businesses in Mexico has been declining. On the other hand, the main thing I use cash for in the US is to get quarters for the laundry machines in my apartment basement.

[TFNA]

> the main thing I use cash for in the US is to get quarters for the laundry machines in my apartment basement.

In Finland I was paying for apartment-building laundry machines with my phone in 2005. Mind-boggling that in the US, those still require quarters over two decades later.

[Cthulhu_]

I've mainly seen it in small businesses - e.g. food vendors - but instead they charge extra for using electronic payment methods. Also to offset the costs they're making on offering it I suspect, but it does encourage people to pay with cash.

[graemep]

> but instead they charge extra for using electronic payment methods.

That is illegal in the UK. That is why many trades people here will accept bank transfers but not cards.

[marysol5]

Even "minimum charge on card" is against VISA/MC rules. But it's still around.

[graemep]

Varies between countries, and card company rules are not quite as threatening as actual laws.

[gambiting]

>> and card company rules are not quite as threatening as actual laws

Well, they are plenty threatening in the sense that if you don't follow them, they will refuse doing business with you, which suddenly means you can't accept cards at all, which can kill a business entirely.

[Gigachad]

A card tx fee of around 1% is common. At 10% it’s tax evasion.

[AnthonyMouse]

If you sell items for $5 and the card charges e.g. 2.9% + $0.30, that's >11%.

On top of that, merchants carry the risk of chargeback fraud or stolen cards, and in some industries that can be another double digit percentage by itself.

[nandomrumber]

> With a dwindling number of legitimate cash users

Services for laundering cash are going to see a huge uptick in turnover.

You put the cash in the local slot machine, the slot machine owner then purchases legitimate services from your wife / cousin / other family member’s business.

Or you rent a hole in the wall location massage business that that maybe legitimately employs one or two people but on the books they manage to see back to back clients for 20 hours a day.

Another good one is hair dresser / barber, they often take cash.

[y-curious]

My barber loves talking about “creative tax tricks” he does as an all cash joint. More interesting was how he managed to purchase a home despite having very little reported income. It involved friends in the “legitimate” cannabis industry in California, but he got it done.

I’m not sure the stress is worth (presumably) 20% or so savings for his income.

[convolvatron]

its not just his income. everybody in the cash economy wins. if I take cash and pay my employees in cash, that's a few transactions the tax man misses out on.

quite a bit of labor runs on cash. you can usually get a deal for a lot of services by paying in cash. sometimes the floor manager will take cash and never even report the transaction to the business much less the tax man (I rent forklifts and get plating work done this way).

[graemep]

> As a result, governments continue to strengthen and expand laws in that direction.

Which creates national security and sovereignty issues. Cash is robust and decentralised. There is a good reason Sweden went from pushing cashless to advising people to keep cash at home for emergencies, and were at least considering an obligation to accept cash for small transactions.

[marysol5]

That's just a disaster planning POV. If you've ever been in a shop where the EPOS goes down, you'll know how chaotic it is. And that's just a macro scale.

[rwmj]

> Which creates national security and sovereignty issues

Are you talking about people who don't pay tax? They create very large national security and sovereignty issues. Countries that don't collect much tax have real problems with both of these.

> There is a good reason Sweden went from pushing cashless to advising people to keep cash at home for emergencies

The key phrase being "for emergencies".

[graemep]

> Countries that don't collect much tax have real problems with both of these.

Nothing like as bad as the potential problem of your economy grinding to a halt.

There are other ways to deal with tax evasion. Those countries usually do not have good systems. If you investigate properly, design tax laws properly, chuck a few people in jail, etc. the problem can be solved.

Not using does not close loopholes, or prevent corruption, or stop people sending money offshore.....

> The key phrase being "for emergencies".

If you go cashless you will not have the infrastructure to use cash in an emergency.

[pjc50]

The national security and sovn. issues are when the US threatens to turn off the system, or starts sanctioning individual non-US nationals.

[graemep]

Or an enemy state of criminals attack centralised systems. Or even just a failure. I think Sweden's biggest concern is the threat posed by Russia.

[anigbrowl]

As a consumer, I like paying with cash. It's more convenient for me to think about the amount I have on me than to maintain a mental inventory of bank/card balances all the time. That's my business, not anyone else's.