[mrandish]

> But Star Wars is best when it's pulp adventure stuff.

This is the way. I saw the first Star Wars the week it opened as a tween and it rocked my world. Both SW and Raiders of the Lost Ark had a clear vision of building on the proven structure of the old B&W movie serials like Flash Gordon but updating them with modern storytelling tools and larger budgets. It was a truly great concept and then Empire raised the stakes higher and even better.

You're right that Mando Season 1 was an attempt to get back to the original concept and it got close. Skeleton Crew is perhaps the only other SW series where the core idea was to update a proven structure of the past in a pure and focused way - except it chose a different genre than 1930s serials. Initially I didn't know what to make of Skeleton Crew but once I got that it was building on the 1980s tween adventures like Goonies, I appreciated how it absolutely nailed what it was going for. My own kids are now older than Skeleton Crew's target audience, so it obviously wasn't for me but I applaud it as Disney's only other pure attempt at applying the 'big idea' that made OG SW great to another genre.

As a sci-fan who loved the original IP to the point of reverence, even bad Star Wars is usually at least interesting but it can also be frustrating when it evokes echoes of the OG by being set in the same universe without even trying to be great in the same ways as the OG. For example, Andor is unique in being a spin-off that is actually very good but I'd argue none of the things that make it so good require being set in the Star Wars universe. It might be even better if it had been unshackled from the rules of the Star Wars cinematic universe and was a new, original sci-fi IP.

[ndsipa_pomu]

> Andor is unique in being a spin-off that is actually very good but I'd argue none of the things that make it so good require being set in the Star Wars universe.

I think it shows the potential of using the Star Wars setting to tell a wide variety of stories. However, although I loved the original trilogy, I wouldn't class myself as a huge Star Wars fan - probably more of a Trekkie.

[mrandish]

> probably more of a Trekkie.

Unfortunately, all the Trek shows have been canceled, so it looks like you're not going to have much to watch for a while. There's a final short season of Strange New Worlds done and coming soon, followed by the last season of Starfleet Academy and that's it.

For the first time in decades no new Star Wars series or movie is even rumored to be in development. Paramount has brand new owners with very different ideas and even Alex Kurtzman's (current Head of Trek) contract is expiring and hasn't been renewed. It's not clear SkyDance has any appetite for funding mega-expensive prestige sci-fi series. The currently unaired episodes were already finished or in production when SkyDance took over and they've approved nothing Star Trek since. When production wrapped, the huge sets built for both SNW and Academy (the most expensive in Star Trek history) weren't even put in storage, Paramount just had them dumpstered instead.

I actually thought SNW was pretty good as it was getting back to the core of what made TOS and TNG Star Trek good. But my 17 year-old daughter had sub-zero interest in Starfleet Academy and she was the target demographic. Sadly, things aren't looking good. The 60th year of Trek could be the last. Personally, I'm hoping that Paramount at least sells the Star Trek IP to someone - maybe Netflix or Amazon? All the billions that were being thrown at buying streaming market share for over a decade has dried up, so it's a bad time for an expensive property whose last few outings weren't big hits to be looking for a new home.

[ndsipa_pomu]

I also enjoyed Strange New Worlds (including the musical episode) and was hoping that was the direction that they were taking. Starfleet Academy seemed to be heading away from the original focus on science fiction ideas and instead tried to be Starfleet 90210, though bizarrely, I did enjoy watching Holly Hunter's performance and thought that is was more fun than annoying. Tig Notaro's character is also very watchable - they should make whole series based around her. Kerrice Brooks was also excellent as SAM and her performance won me over after initially thinking her character was just designed for comic relief.

However, the best modern Star Trek has to be The Orville.

[mrandish]

> (including the musical episode)

Oh... you had to go and bring up the musical episode. :-)

Let me preface with: I actually like some more modern, top-tier musicals. I saw Wicked on Broadway with the original cast and was blown away by how good it was. Greatest Showman has 3 killer songs and I have 3 or 4 songs from Rent on my playlist, even though I've never seen the play. As for the broader musical genre, I don't mind the best of Lloyd Webber and I respect the craft of Gershwin and Sondheim but don't enjoy it enough to listen to - and average-quality musicals just aren't my thing.

That said, the SNW musical episode featured shockingly good songs in the musical genre and several of the cast are extraordinary singers. While I appreciated the way SNW committed to going all-in on an edgy concept, and it was clearly a labor of love which consumed many unpaid hours... to me, it just isn't Trek. Even a very good Trek musical can only exist in an uncanny valley for me. I know people who loved it. I get that they were watching it and feeling "OMG, I love that Trek is 'boldly going...' with such creative experiments!" and "OMFG, they can really SING!", "the songs are actually GOOD!" but those are all meta-thoughts, and if most of my thoughts during first-watch are meta-thoughts, something's wrong. Another sign of trouble: I can't actually recall any of the major plot points of the episode.

I grew up in the 70s and fell in love watching TOS re-runs after school and dutifully watched all the ST movies during first-run, liking the even numbered ones more. Then as an adult, I loved TNG's entire run. As we said about OG Star Wars earlier in this thread, Trek represents a strong core premise to me (Roddenberry's concept pitch to NBC for TOS was "Wagon Train to the Stars"). And I'm fine when they play with the premise a little. I didn't mind when TOS did 'humorous' episodes, Mudd's Planet is still a classic and even Trouble with Tribbles didn't bother me. But when an IP with such a strong core identity strays too far from the fundamental nature of "what it is", I start to lose connection with it.

As I said about Andor, it's not that I reject branching out creatively. It's more that beyond a certain point, it's gone so far it starts becoming a different thing. To me, that's a sign it should have been born as it's own thing from the start. That lets the new thing define itself, find its unique core and be great on it's own terms. But when the root IP is one with decades of legacy core identity, anything that should be a new thing inherits creative baggage the size of a planet. This is bad because the new thing will inevitably start creatively rubbing up against the constraints of the root IP.

A simple litmus test for any high-concept in this context is to ask "Would it work if it was launched as it's own series in this existing universe?" I can imagine a Mudd's Planet spin-off series focused on Harry's adventures working great. It would benefit creatively from being set in the Star Trek universe and could even strengthen the Trek-verse in occasional cross-over episodes. Now ask the same question about a musical sci-fi series. How much would it creatively gain versus what it loses from being limited to the Trek-verse? The benefit would mainly be brand recognition drawing Trek fans to early episodes but, by definition, it's so different it'll inevitably have to stand or fall on its own. How would a musical cross-over with a different Trek series even work? As someone who's never seen Lower Decks, I found the SNW / LD cross-over episode not only weak but disorienting. The problem wasn't animation, it was tonal divergence between two things that work apart but not together (a sign that Lower Decks probably didn't gain as much from being in the Trek-verse as it lost). Two inverse examples are the excellent movie Galaxy Quest and John Scalzi's outstanding novel Red Shirts. Both are obviously completely inspired by the Trek-verse, but not being Paramount licensed, they are based on "a generic long-running, beloved sci-fi TV series" and neither suffers for it. In fact, they each diverge from the Trek-verse in several ways that allow them to be even better in ways they couldn't have been if they were set in the Trek-verse.

That's why I'd rather see a new musical sci-fi series have the freedom of creating it's own universe that best serves its unique creative needs.

[mrandish]

I'll add one other thought which just occurred to me: Most of the serious fans who like the "gimmick" episodes such as the musical and Lower Decks cross-over, like them because of the gimmick. Whether the specific reason is that it's so different, creative, fun, well-executed etc - it's still about the gimmick. While various gimmick episodes certainly have their fans, those episodes are not commonly found near the top of "Best Episodes Ever" lists.

Conversely, there are a quite a few creatively bold Trek episodes which branch significantly into different genres, yet don't go too far which are commonly found at the top of "Best Episode Ever" lists. For example, TOS episode "City on the Edge of Forever" is considered one of the greatest episodes of not just Trek but any sci-fi show - and it's a 1930s noir detective story! Yet when you read descriptions of it, it's not described as "that noir detective episode", it's more "the amazing Star Trek story Harlan Ellison wrote." It's not remembered for the gimmick, it's revered for the story. Similarly, TNG episode "Inner Light" is an adult drama that could easily be a non-sci-fi fantasy movie starring Tom Hanks - yet is ranked in the top five TNG episodes of all time. The key difference is they are great episodes with gimmicks, not episodes with great gimmicks.

[ndsipa_pomu]

I agree about the difference between "great episodes with gimmicks" and "episodes with great gimmicks" and I'd put the SNW musical episode into the latter - it was them having fun with the whole premise and probably shouldn't be considered canon.

Personally, I enjoy it when writers/producers try out an experiment and have particular episodes that don't really fit in with the themes and expectations of the series as a whole, but they do tend to polarise people.

The classic example that I think of with regards to musical episodes is the Buffy The Vampire Slayer epsiode "Once More, With Feeling". Joss Whedon had been experimenting with different concepts, such as "Hush" (the opposite of a musical episode) and "The Body" (stunning piece of television in my view), so throwing in a musical episode wasn't completely unexpected, but that particular episode pushed forwards and resolving some major plot points with characters revealing deep secrets.

(It's interesting that the three Buffy episodes I mentioned are considered the best episodes despite them having dramatically different styles).

[bluefirebrand]

> For example, Andor is unique in being a spin-off that is actually very good but I'd argue none of the things that make it so good require being set in the Star Wars universe

Yes, exactly. Andor could easily have been a story of French Resistance against Nazi Germany during WW2

Star Wars is definitely at its best when it is not just being Star Wars

Same with Marvel, but that's another discussion