[fcarraldo]

It sounds like you’re running this mostly on a single machine? Temporal gets much more complex with scale. Cassandra isn’t fun to manage. Ringpop and TChannel are hard to debug when things go wrong. The SQL backend support doesn’t support horizontally scaled replicas (just single instance) due to consistency requirements. Depending on how your code is written, modifying code baked into workflows becomes complex, as anything that modifies the history event ordering breaks determinism in already-deployed workers.

We use it heavily and everyone who started on it doing simple scripting/automation all love it, everyone who built real production systems on top of it all hate it. Possibly operator error, but my experience hasn’t matched the rosy picture painted in these comments.

[inglor]

In the last two years, we built (with a team of 15, now 100) a billion dollar business on top of Temporal that performs business critical applications for fortune 500 companies. We couldn't be happier with temporal.

Determinism sucks, you do have to work hard and make everything idempotent in activities like we would for durable software anyway. The language we used was incorrect (Go) and has a lot of boilerplate compared to alternatives we later investigated (Python and TypeScript). Visibility can be slow and misses information. We needed to write our own APIs to work effectively with Agents for root-cause analysis of failures.

With all the caveats - Temporal is amazing, it feels much better than previous orchestrators I used like Prefect or Airflow. 100% would adopt again.

[bitexploder]

That is the real truth people are voicing when they say Temporal is heavy. They are really saying: Durable, reliable, distributed workloads are hard and it takes effort to manage! And that is true. I know of no systems that make that genuinely easy. It is a hard discipline. Maybe Temporal makes that harder than it should be, but I have no experience there.

There are no free lunches in this space. I have no idea how good or bad Temporal is since my usage is pretty small and isolated, but software rarely just works and impresses me and Temporal for my local machine orchestrating genuinely did. I think Netflix's conductor is another cool option, but I ended up with Temporal due to license.

[hmaxdml]

Have you looked into DBOS? Same thesis: durable and reliable workflows are hard to manage -- it just doesn't have to be as hard as Temporal makes it be :)

[bitexploder]

Have not. For my workflows this was fine. Good to keep in mind thoUgh. I don’t plan to manage a truly distributed system with it. Plus my only reason to do so is professional and we rolled our own system here due to our size solutions like DBOS or Temporal would not work well.

[UnfitFootprint]

Could you share a bit more about your learnings on go + temporal? That combo was next in line for us to migrate _to_

[inglor]

Sure, basically:

- Temporal itself is written in Go and we use Go for our backend so we expected this to be a natural fit. - Temporal makes writing activities in Go very explicit and boilerplatey - This in turn makes testing more difficult than it needs to be often - Temporal doesn't play well with Go's concurrency model at all (all stuff like goroutines needs to go through its special workflows.Go) a lot more often you have to write stuff that "appeases" temporal. - The whole workflows.ExecuteActivity(...).Get(...) is weird, having futures in a language explcitly designed to avoid that is weird. - All our compute isn't done on temporal workers anyway, its done (in another AWS account, owned by the customer) in batch compute (aws batch, lambda, ec2, whatever) so our temporal code isn't CPU heavy but is highly concurrent and needs a very high reliability guarantee. - Compare that to temporal with TypeScript, where it's simple and easy to use the same code inside or outside of temporal. Testing is trivial and the code looks like "regular code".

[UnfitFootprint]

Interesting. Perhaps the go sdk is in alignment with the go-principle of being explicit. I’ll take care to review examples of goroutines etc under temporal before calling any shots. Thanks

[taberiand]

> Depending on how your code is written, modifying code baked into workflows becomes complex, as anything that modifies the history event ordering breaks determinism in already-deployed workers.

I see this as Temporal surfacing inherent complexity of the domain in a way that forces the developer to consider it, rather than introducing extra complexity.

If it didn't make workflow determinism a strict requirement, the requirement would still exist - it would just hurt much worse in production when it's broken.

See also: Rust borrowing

[inglor]

Actually Temporal does have a way to avoid determinism called rainbow deployments.

If you're fine with deploying several versions of workers (and are on a reasonably new version) you can just avoid the determinism issue altogether with their k8s controller.

If you do need to have some long workflows, there is an explicit hook for "what happens to existing workflows on version upgrade".

But to be fair - none of the other orchastrators I used (like AirFlow) made me write workflows.IsNewCode/IsOldCode like temporal does. On the other hand AirFlow doesn't even have the capability to do that in the first place (or at least it didn't last I used it).

[taberiand]

Well sure - that's essentially the same as wrapping the whole workflow in a version check for each version; copy-paste the whole lot and change the code wherever. It's still surfacing an issue that would otherwise be less visible on a system that did allow a worker on a new version to pull an old half-completed workflow

[kumulo]

Temporal feels massive, I tried it for a small workflow embedded on my system, and worked fine, but when thinking on scaling it, it just didn't made any sense for my use case.

I also have restate.dev on my reseearch list, which on paper should scale well and be definitely more lightweight and simple to setup, worth having a look.

[burner_acc001]

give conductor a try. runs with sqlite or if you want to run it on a server mysql or postgres. I know people running with postgres with a decent scale and it works just fine.

https://docs.conductor-oss.org/

[bitexploder]

Yep. Individual systems with yolo agents doing stuff in isolation. I could see how it can get complex. Most distributed systems are. No free lunches I guess. I am not sure what the alternatives are at scale.

[cnlwsu]

We are a huge production setup where it’s absolutely critical successfully but we use temporal cloud. Hosting it yourself is what makes it miserable. https://temporal.io/resources/on-demand/netflix

[hmaxdml]

That's why their entire business model -- like Astronomer's -- is geared toward cloud hosting. The architecture is so complex it takes a full time team to run it.

[chrisss395]

"gets much more complex with scale" feels like the crux of it. Pick the right solution for your intended scale

That said, I appreciate this is hard in practice. We need to start small to manage the development rabbit hole risk, while also wanting to dream big. There is a tension there that I find hard to balance.

[linkregister]

Did I read your comment correctly that Temporal includes Ringpop in their product? Interesting choice to say the least.