[trunnell]

I'm in the SF bay area w/ middle school and high school age kids.

Between San Jose and San Francisco, 15%-30% of kids are in private school (it's 30% in SF where the public schools are extra dysfunctional). That's far above the California statewide average of 8% in private school.

Among our peers, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of kids are doing advanced math outside of school, typically either Russian School of Math or Art of Problem Solving. This group only partially overlaps with the private school group. This is happening despite the fact that both public and private school teachers strongly discourage math outside of school!

So by decelerating math in the public school, incentives were created for privileged parents to take matters in their own hands and put their kids into programs that accelerate math education far beyond what public schools used to do. We now have a system that is creating even wider disparities in outcomes. It stands to reason that it's producing far less equitable outcomes, too, given that extremely bright kids who happen to be in lower-resourced schools have fewer opportunities. Universal screening for giftedness, advanced public school math courses, and the SAT -- all avenues for advancement regardless of background -- were all eliminated.

[naet]

I'm in Oakland with a three year old and I'm looking to either move to a better school district or pay for an expensive private school. I used to be a substitute teacher for the Oakland unified school district and I straight up refuse to send my son there. I have seen firsthand that these kids are not being taught well and the shortcomings compound year over year until you end with high school level students that are unequipped to learn at the high school level, often only barely able to read. Completely unequipped to read critically at the level needed for a proper high school education. Students get passed on to the next level no matter what, even if they lack the basic skills needed to succeed at that level.

It has only gone downhill since I left, and is now facing something like a hundred million dollar deficit in budget which will likely lead to deeper cuts and worse student outcomes.

I'm not sure what I will do but the deadline to figure it out is fast approaching. Probably we will move, but not sure how to find the right place that isn't too far away or out of our budget but can offer a better future / stronger education for my children. I don't have the solution, but I know other places have done much better than my city sadly. I've read that states like Mississippi have been able to dramatically improve their educational outcomes with certain literacy programs.

[rahimnathwani]

Have you considered Yu Ming, the language immersion charter school? You wouldn't need to move, you wouldn't need to pay, and 88℅ of students meet or exceed state standards for math.

(There are folks working at SFUSD for whom Yu Ming was their top choice of school for their kids.)

[drivebyhooting]

Private schools are not all created equal. And the admissions gauntlet can be a special kind of hell.

[derwiki]

Can you speak more to the gauntlet? Had a bunch of friends go private in SF this year and other than “play date interviews” it seemed like a breeze?

[drivebyhooting]

The interviews are about vetting the parents than the actual child. The criteria are opaque and fraught with nepotism and discrimination.

There is a veritable cottage industry of admission consultants charging up to $10,000 for interview prepping the family.

[rahimnathwani]

It could be worse: https://share.google/Uewx4foyaWV9ukXsC

[efavdb]

FWIW: A few nearby towns that are supposed to have good schools: Castro Valley, Albany, Alameda.

[niwtsol]

Could you elaborate on the reasoning they "strongly discourage math outside of school"? I'm genuinely curious how that would be a stance they take.

[trunnell]

We've heard:

- It can make kids "overconfident when they see material they think they already know, so they end up not engaging."

- Some programs, particularly RSM, are criticized for valuing speed over depth. Current culture for K-8 math teachers is the opposite, they value depth over speed.

Left unsaid:

- It can make the teacher's job harder when the class has a wide span of abilities.

- Current teaching culture is skeptical of accelerating and/or skipping grades in math.

Notably, we've never heard English teachers be upset about a kid reading a book outside of school that's above grade level, or using advanced vocabulary in an essay. They tend to praise it.

[niwtsol]

Got it, thanks for the response - I think my honest reaction is shocked by reading this. I was always good at math and it was such a source of pride and sense of accomplishment. In english I struggled, vowel sounds, grammar, it just didn't come naturally to me. I'm a little disheartened by this slide (for lack of a better word) of public school education, especially STEM.

[derwiki]

Maybe part of it is that math is objective and writing is subjective? A math teacher could be called out by a 13 yo for “being wrong” but for an English teacher, what is “wrong”?

[sometimelurker]

> valuing speed over depth

have you shown them the lengths of the homeworks RSM gives? vastly more depth than any hw a public school would give imo.

[niwtsol]

I believe there are some public schools that have stopped giving homework for k-5 completely which is just shocking to me.

[rawgabbit]

Not the OP. I assume the public school teachers don't want to answer when the student says "my Russian math teacher said to do this" instead of the common core math that is being taught.

https://www.mathschool.com/blog/parent-resources/what-is-rus...

[isityettime]

> So by decelerating math in the public school, incentives were created for privileged parents to take matters in their own hands and put their kids into programs that accelerate math education far beyond what public schools used to do. We now have a system that is creating even wider disparities in outcomes.

Afaik China has widely carried out this same experiment to basically the same effect, across multiple disciplines. It's the push for so-called "happy education", which involves the relaxation of exam standards inside public schools, and has led to more after-school tutoring to make up the gaps, for families who can afford it. Lowering the common standards simply doesn't really work when there just aren't as many seats in universities as there are people who want to attend them.

[rahimnathwani]

Then they outlawed after school tutoring.

[gretch]

> This is happening despite the fact that both public and private school teachers strongly discourage math outside of school!

Do you have more info on this? Where is it coming from and what does it look like?

Because this is actually crazy if true.

Like, just compare to a situation where they strongly discourage Reading outside of school.

Not to mention that math is just a basic life skill and it gets exercised just going through normal every day stuff (at least middle school level math)