[brightball]

> Being a U.S. ally no longer guarantees that you will be protected by the U.S. as Ukraine is seeing.

How much more is the US supposed to do in Ukraine beyond the $60-70 billion in weapons and supplies? Do we need to actually go to war with Russia?

[marcus_holmes]

> Do we need to actually go to war with Russia?

Yes. That's what everyone signed up to [0] when Ukraine gave up its Soviet-era nukes.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

[0xDEAFBEAD]

If you read the memorandum text, at most the US promised to go to the UN security council if Ukraine's territorial integrity was threatened.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P...

There is a lot of misinformation floating around the internet about this memorandum.

Furthermore, even Wikipedia states: "The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty, and it does not confer any new legal obligations for signatory states. It was written in a way to avoid an impression of legal obligation."

[oneshtein]

Your words are not proven in court.

[ben_w]

What court would care to hear it?

[0xDEAFBEAD]

Where in the memorandum does it say the US is obligated to defend Ukraine? Please give me a direct quote.

Otherwise this is a nonsense objection. "You have to give me $1 million. You haven't proven otherwise in court!" What is the actual evidence for your position?

[mikestorrent]

Great, more dead boys for nothing. As a Canadian, I think we've sacrificed enough generations for European brother wars. Given retrospect, wouldn't a land deal have been better than half a million dead? Wouldn't walking away from your house, maybe with a reparations package, be better than it being blown up by drones and your family killed?

I don't think we need to go to war. We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman.

[Lio]

Land deal?

Russia has never asked for a land deal. They started the war and their goal has always been the total destruction of Ukraine and the enslavement of the people.

Where they’ve pulled back from occupied areas they’ve mass civilian graves and bodies with signs of torture.

[selivanovp]

Stop spreading propaganda.

- Ukrainians are the second largest ethnicity in Russia.

- The majority of people living on a currently contested territories of Ukraine used to be USSR citizens.

- Russia got the majority of Ukrainian refugees since the start of a war if we count per country.

- Pretty much all the former Ukraine citizens got Russian passports and a citizens of Russia now.

- And yes, if Ukraine is using cities as fortresses and do not evacuate civilians from there, high chances are that after weeks and months long battles those civilians end up in graves with nasty wounds on their bodies.

[Lio]

> And yes, if Ukraine is using cities as fortresses and do not evacuate civilians from there, high chances are that after weeks and months long battles those civilians end up in graves with nasty wounds on their bodies.

"Nasty wounds" like their hands tied behind their backs and a hole in the back of their skull? That kind of thing?

That sounds like the definition of a war crime to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

[krige]

> - Ukrainians are the second largest ethnicity in Russia.

No. Never was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia

> - Russia got the majority of Ukrainian refugees since the start of a war if we count per country.

No. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refuge...

You might be confusing abductees with refugees.

> - The majority of people living on a currently contested territories of Ukraine used to be USSR citizens.

The majority of people living on contested territories of United States in 1775 used to be British citizens. So?

> - And yes, if Ukraine is using cities as fortresses and do not evacuate civilians from there, high chances are that after weeks and months long battles those civilians end up in graves with nasty wounds on their bodies.

Absolutely vile propaganda.

[adrian_b]

I agree with what you say, but "Never was" is contradicted by your Wikipedia link, which shows Ukrainians in the second position at the 1926 census, being overtaken by Tatars in the more recent censuses.

However, it is not said which is the territory for the 1926 census data, it may have included a part of the present territory of Ukraine, because the borders of present Ukraine are very different from the borders of Ukraine after WWI.

Such census data about Russia and the Soviet Union are hard to interpret without precise knowledge of the corresponding territories, because the fluctuations in numbers may be unrelated to natural growth, but determined by administrative reorganizations or forced deportations.

[raverbashing]

And literally none of this matters and it's a laundry list of loser russian propaganda

Funny how those reasons don't matter in the least when it's time for russian losers to bomb civilians in Kyiv

[oneshtein]

> Ukrainians are the second largest ethnicity in Russia.

Ukrainian were second largest ethnicity in Russian Empire/Russian federation until massive massacre in 1932-1934 years, when an uknown number of Ukrainians between 7 million (confirmed by Russian Duma at 04.02.2008, adults only, childrens are not counted) and 25 millions (total number of USSR citizens died because of hunger, number from soviet archives captured by Germans in 1941) was murdered or starved to death.

[noir_lord]

Go read the article on the Bucha massacre and then the see also.

Sometimes the only way to deal with the boogeyman is to accept they are the boogeyman because of their pattern of behaviour.

[moi2388]

Sure! You’re more than welcome to give up Canada to Russia to protect the people in Ukraine.

No? Don’t want to trade land suddenly?

[MrDresden]

> "We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman."

Are you even aware of what has been going on in Ukraine for the last 4 years, and in Crimea for the last 12?

[krige]

> We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman.

We tried that in the 90s. Didn't work. Made things worse, really.

[fooster]

Appeasement does not work. It emboldens fascist dictators.

[chimprich]

> Wouldn't walking away from your house, maybe with a reparations package, be better than it being blown up by drones and your family killed?

Please explain your analogy. Everyone should give up their property whenever they are threatened? For free, or whatever the aggressor chooses to give them?

> I don't think we need to go to war. We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman.

What does that mean? How would you deal with them with humanity? Just give up your country when they invade?

[marcus_holmes]

Agree completely.

But part of that would be getting Russia to stop attempting to become a cold-war boogeyman, and stop behaving like a cold-war boogeyman.

Russia also signed that treaty, and is also blatantly breaking it.

[lux-lux-lux]

New Ukraine aid effectively ended with the current administration, if you were unaware

[drnick1]

It did not, but the implicit U.S. policy is to help Ukraine just enough to maintain a stalemate and to keep Russia busy and unable to assist other countries like Cuba and Iran.

[lukan]

How is the US aiding now, besides selling weapons?

Intel probaly, but we don't know the exact arrangements there. And nothing like before.

[manphone]

Oh, they were aware from the phrasing they ate implying that we’ve already spent enough and we should stop, which is exactly what Trump was saying and is totally stupid if you want the world not to be run by Vladimir Putin.

[watwut]

It is supposed to deliver arms European countries literally paid for.

Second, USA should not negotiate for Russia nor help them. They are doing both.

[jleyank]

What’s the word of the us on a treaty worth?

[noir_lord]

Given the US threatened to annex territory of two NATO members in the last couple of years.

A lot less to it’s allies than it was I’d suggest.

[digitaltrees]

How about $600 billion. Since when did the US say we are just going to let russia win because we don’t want to spend the money? What happened to “These colors don’t run” republicans? Oh wait it was BS all along. Got it.

[sobellian]

Ukraine is still fighting. We don't need to send troops. We just need to keep sending weapons (Trump stopped this)

[GJim]

> How much more is the US supposed to do in Ukraine beyond the $60-70 billion in weapons and supplies?

sigh

800 Patriot missiles were used within the first 3 days in the Iran war. This is greater than the total number of Patriot missiles received by Ukraine during the entire war with Russia.

Your orange president is displaying some funny priorities.