[akst]

I think you're confused, I was talking to two different points, while I'm sure I could have communicated with more precision, either missed it, it was unclear or you don't understand, either way I don't really get the gotcha tone when you could ask for a clarification:

Anyways, the two points:

- The first point was, "not having a common way to generalise over both sync, async or blue, green, brown functions, seems avoidable and bad". This is when the type system struggling to common up with a common classification for function invocation independently of colour.

- The second point was that, was "so what if there are different return / wrapping / container / monad types", which focuses on a more common interpretation of this article but a different one.

In Haskell a type in a result, State, Config, Parsec, Maybe is in it for a reason, and thankfully we can generalise over that. Higher kind types (abstracting over abstractions) is a whole other basket, as an ex haskeller I would love to see them more mainstream but admittedly I don't think language authors are convinced and there isn't much we can do about it, so we should learn to make do with what we have outside of haskell.

[codebje]

I think I was simply not very good at expressing what I was trying to convey, sorry, and it is a fault of mine to come across as gotcha-y even when trying not to. Thank you for responding with patience despite that.

The first point I interpret as "colourful arguments are avoidable and bad", with which I agree.

The second point I interpret as "colourful returns are unavoidable but good", with which I disagree - even if that interpretation is too strong and is more "... are unavoidable".

A function's type is its full signature, including inputs and outputs. When you have first-class functions, you have values with function types, and those values are inputs to other functions. Necessarily, then, if you colour outputs you have also applied colour to inputs.

Transposing a vector of things to a thing of vectors is an example of where colourful output forces colourful input. If you cannot abstract over abstractions, you must write and re-write the sequence function for each abstraction.

I'm in agreement with your closing paragraph's sentiment. That HKTs aren't a broadly adopted solution is something I accept, but I reserve the right to low-key begrudge it.

(And the more I write about this, the more I wish the original article had used "flavour" rather than "colour" as I try and probably fail to find phrasing that doesn't simply sound like portions of a racist rant.)

[akst]

> I think I was simply not very good at expressing what I was trying to convey, sorry

No its, and I appreciate you taking the time to read my reply and consider my perspective here.

> The second point I interpret as "colourful returns are unavoidable but good", with which I disagree - even if that interpretation is too strong and is more "... are unavoidable"

Thats fair, but yeah I wouldn't go so far to say its good or imply we should celebrate it in anyways, more so it as a unavoidable constraint that warrants engaging with.

For sure HKT would generalise many stray ends, and there are definately more complicated usecases where you can write much nicer types with HKT, although my experience has been theres been more pain in writing them without HKT than using them without HKT so the pain is a fixed cost of building the library and not an on going problem of using it. Although I am sure there are cases where it's also the case that usage of the library is more painful without HKT.

IDK, I haven't written a ton of Haskell in a while maybe I've forgotten some of its magic and internalised some of the suboptimal aspects of the absense of working without HKT.

But I do from time to time find problems that would be nicer to solve with HKT, I think generally quite a few of them are DSLs or some form of meta programming. I guess in typescript conditional types you can get away with a lot cooked things.

> Transposing a vector of things to a thing of vectors is an example of where colourful output forces colourful input. If you cannot abstract over abstractions, you must write and re-write the sequence function for each abstraction

I've unfortunately also had similar issues from the lack of HKTs with some linear algebra APIs so I don't find this too surprising.