[customguy]

> All these promises without even reaching an ideal! Could it simply be that this ideal is becoming impoverished?

What ideal?

> The prevailing view is that « AI makes us stupid », so it’s actually a good thing if only the wealthy were still capable of using it.

You mean it would be a good thing?

> I doubt that [..] we will ever fail to overcome entropy

What does this mean?

> What is given without effort does not transform.

Children who have loving parents absolutely are affected by that, even if the love is given unconditionally and was there even before they had a sense of self. We are also very much transformed by living on a planet with sunlight and all that entails, and we never had to turn the sun on for that.

It's true that muscles you don't use atrophy, and that includes the brain and "the heart", but it's also true that the best things in life are free.

[Melamune]

> What ideal?

What is ideal for one person may not for another, therefore I cannot define this ideal without making a mistake. But if I had to try, I would say: answers for the scientist, paradise for the believer. As for the impoverished ideal, some of the fundamental goals that serve as a pretext for these technologies have not even been achieved and yet we are already, gradually and methodically, being stripped of using them.

> You mean it would be a good thing?

It would be a good thing, yes. Not the most desirable option, to be sure. But proportionally less harmful to all those who would then be forced to do without it and adapt without necessarily conforming. I admit it's a divisive issue and that it's unlikely to happen that way. But we won't be able to reason with those who see only progress or magic in it, nor will we be able to close this Pandora's box. Whether rightly or wrongly.

> What does this mean?

This means that, as far as we know, it is impossible to prevent the universe from deteriorating, aging, or descending into chaos, because decay and disorganization are fundamental laws. Perfection is not of this world, and thankfully so, for beings as imperfect as we are would quickly corrupt it.

> the best things in life are free.

That’s an interesting thought experiment, indeed. There are indeed things that are given to us, and for which we can be grateful. Antoine Lavoisier said, “Nothing is lost, nothing is created; everything is transformed.” That’s kind of the problem with quotes, they sound nice but don’t always take the complexity of the world into account.

It was a pleasure exchanging with you.

[customguy]

> What is ideal for one person may not for another, therefore I cannot define this ideal without making a mistake. But if I had to try, I would say: answers for the scientist, paradise for the believer.

Ah I see, I thought you had a specific ideal in mind, but you rather mean having any ideal at all, right? I agree, I'm dismayed how many view any idealism as "immature" or "unrealistic". It's very tragic IMO because we're not so passive because the world would be so hard to make better, the world is so hard to make better because we're so passive, and think so small.

> with those who see only progress or magic in it, nor will we be able to close this Pandora's box. Whether rightly or wrongly.

Hey, didn't you just deplore lack of idealism? Of course we can't reason with them, not with that attitude! But knowing that other humans just want the best for themselves and those they love, surely they shall see the good sense of our arguments, if only we bring them forth with the right cheerful spirit! I'm only half-joking, and of course you also have a point.

If "AI" does real work and gets better and better, they'll price us out, stomp us underfoot like ants. A giant blob of consumers saying "go away, batin!" until it bursts and dries out, leaving nothing but some Moloch monolith. The upside of that would be that we don't have to worry about arguments, or beat ourselves up for not having tried hard enough. We'd be like other early humans species that curiously are no longer around.

BUT if we're right, and it's really just putting everything people made into a blender, to produce a brief powder flash and then confusion and regret, we'd do well to hold on to our ideals, whatever they may be, and to caring and thinking things through as best as we can; in short, to being human. There's a new drug, a lot of people got addicted or kinda lost their minds, but a lot of them will come around, too, and should know they're always welcome back.

> This means that, as far as we know, it is impossible to prevent the universe from deteriorating, aging, or descending into chaos

Okay, so you meant we will never overcome entropy, not, as you originally wrote, that we will never fail to overcome it. You can see how that would be confusing.

> decay and disorganization are fundamental laws. Perfection is not of this world, and thankfully so, for beings as imperfect as we are would quickly corrupt it.

Not that I would call us or anything perfect (gotta keep it around as an ideal :), but that's what life does, struggle against entropy, introduce and proliferate some order, for a little while. The idea that with just enough power and/or knowledge we can somehow make a leap into a different category (one that lasts) is probably just wishful thinking, if there's even any thought involved, so the best we can do is try to be excellent, and excellent to each other.

(At least, that'd be my ideal, someone else might say we must fight as brutally as we can so at the end of time, some super stronk warrior gets to turn out the light, but it's so easy to show such things up as stupid so that's what we should keep doing)