[keiferski]

I wasn't making it about wokism at all.

And I don't agree that you should be rooting for protagonist. That's an extremely limited way of looking at literature, much less history. I can think of half a dozen books offhand that have unpleasant or anti-hero type protagonists.

[huhkerrf]

Fair enough, I withdraw the "rooting for" comment. More accurate to say that you shouldn't be actively annoyed at the protagonist.

[cassianoleal]

Isn't art supposed to elicit an emotional response in the audience?

[ChrisMarshallNY]

> I can think of half a dozen books offhand that have unpleasant or anti-hero type protagonists.

I was not a fan of Thomas Covenant. What a prick.

[keiferski]

I just finished American Tabloid and I don’t think there was a single honorable character in the whole novel. Not one, out of dozens.

[tclancy]

That’s interesting. I was a huge Ellroy fan and I think that’s probably my favorite book. I always got the impression in his books the idea was the protagonists were heroes or, more accurately, could have been if there was any place for them in the Ellroy universe. Instead, they do sordid stuff because there really isn’t another way in the rigged game they live in. To feel like they have agency, they try to find a third way between the options of “good” and “evil” but usually wind up doomed, so who can say if they have agency at all. Except for Dudley, who is definitely not a hero in anyone’s universe. Though even he is a bit of a nod to the trope of heroic Irish cop who gets things done in spite of the system.

I don’t know if it’s him or me, but the last book gave me the feeling Ellroy has fully embraced the man-o-sphere. I can hardly judge him, given the story of his upbringing, but I think I am going to catch the next stop on his bus line.

[keiferski]

I haven't read any of his other books, but Tabloid definitely didn't have that feeling you mentioned. It's more of a pervasive matter-of-fact "everyone is corrupt" vibe, even people like JFK, the FBI, cops, etc.

[tclancy]

I should revisit it, but we came at it from different places (and good Lord I read it over a quarter century ago). There are some threads from previous Ellroy books (Pete Bondurant himself) and, assuming I recall any of this correctly after all this time, I feel like the Kemper Boyd character is the same basic Guy as Ed Exley from LA Confidential and the protagonist of White Jazz. Or maybe The Black Dahlia. But obviously it’s not all black and white, right?

[ChrisMarshallNY]

In A Song of Fire and Ice (the series that spawned Game of Thrones, and has yet to be completed), you get to really hating on a character, then, their story gets told from their side (usually, before they are killed), and you find that maybe you don't hate them so much.