Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by lokar 20 days ago
Society pays a lot for children as well. Including members without children.
4 comments

Yes, but not commensurately.

A child might cost its parents somewhere beyond $200k, the parents only get a tiny fraction of this from the state.

And the public paying for education is not a subsidy for parents in my view, but an investment into the children, i.e. future taxpayers (=> the parents don't really gain from that).

I think you are arguing inconsistently here. You can't claim at the same time that we should recognize all of the benefits of children (in their adulthood) and at the same time not recognize the cost to society to educate them. It's a subsidy, a wise subsidy and money well spent, but it's still a cost.
My point is: Society itself recoups the investment into education very easily (from competent taxpaying workers some years later), but the main cost of raising children is paid by parents, and they don't get back anything (economically).

All the benefits that used to be there (adolescents helping with farm/work, children taking care of aging parents) became more and more irrelevant, but general costs of raising children (to parents) have not decreased at all (and "reputational" cost of just skipping parenthood is at rock bottom, too, so that is no longer pushing prospective parents towards economically irrational decisions, either).

> A child might cost its parents somewhere beyond $200k, the parents only get a tiny fraction of this from the state.

Yet another reason for others not to chip in your bad ROI decisions then

The fact that birth rate is so low in countries with good social security safe net suggests that the society isn't paying enough.
Not necessarily. It's possible that no amount of money would solve this problem. Birth control inherently broke the previously built evolutionary mechanism that insured that the extremely strong built in desire for sex would result in kids. That's no longer the case, and a lot of people would decide to not have kids even if money were no object.

As you point out, Finland famously has incredible family support, and also a birth rate under 1.3.

Afaik according to research, the only thing that helps is

1. Lump sum, pretty big (like year worth of salary or close) payment on birth

2. Works for first child only.

That's it. So, it kinda works, but very limited. Increasing sum did not increase birthrates, if I remember correctly.

This sounds extremely plausible to me, but I would be very careful about conclusions from such studies, because I believe the general expectations of society as a whole regarding child-raising matter a lot and you can't easily quantify that.

Anecdotally, when my grandmother did not birth a child for two consecutive years in her thirties the village priest came to investigate (!!). Expectations have shifted massively since, and the single/dink lifestyle is way more "acceptable" now.

And often the payment merely changes the timing of the child
E.g. they have "free" higher education in Germany isn't it? Maybe not even just for domestic students?
I know a big factor in Korea is social relationships between the genders (expectations about housework, childcare, etc). The current arrangements are not attractive to many women.

How is it in Germany? I would guess better

not much. the reality is that women still take a hit on their potential careers and income, and are expected to do most of the childcare work. another problem that i see not only in germany is that men are not trusted with children or being capable of doing housework.

also on the attractiveness for women, germany being less traditional means that more women are willing to break traditions, so even if the situation there is better for them, women are still less interested, which means the effect in the end is the same.

A mismatch between expectations (of women) and the current status (of men, and society).
People who don't ride trains also pay taxes for rail.

People who are not flying are also financing airports from taxes.

This is why butthurt "childless pay taxes for schools but not using them" is super stupid