[latexr]

But they’re saying it feels like extortion. The problems of the web aren’t the fault of those extension developers, nor can they do anything about it besides trying to mitigate it. It’s in our best interest that they can do so sustainably, meaning charging for it. It’s not gall, they’re fighting it for themselves and making the solution available for all.

That comment places a lot of blame where it doesn’t lie. It’s like calling surgeons extortionists for having the gall to charge for treating you. Yes, ideally that should be free and available to all, and perhaps if those people had the freedom to choose (e.g. having their own needs met so they didn’t have to work) they would do it. But that’s not how the system is setup, and their skills don’t translate to fixing the problem at the root. Not all of us are cut out to be politicians (and as we all know, being well-intentioned as one still doesn’t mean you have the power to enact policy).

[jason_oster]

The definition of extortion is the coercion of money in "exchange for protection", where the threat to be protected against is typically perpetrated by the coercer. I'm not using the term in the literal sense, as if an antivirus software firm is producing computer viruses. Thus, this case "feels like extortion", not "we are being extorted". (It may as well be advertising firms selling ad blocking software because the net effect to the end user is the same, but I digress.)

FWIW, I don't consider surgeons to be extortionists. That's an absurdity that you are using as illustrative of why I'm wrong to call software developers extortionists when they charge for a privilege that should be a right. There are two issues with the comparison: 1) I did not call software engineers extortionists (but sure, I can see how you drew that conclusion), and 2) people absolutely should have a right to life-saving surgery and should not be denied on the basis of payment.

There is a huge preexisting problem: health care is not a human right [1]. There are other issues with health care that isn't just money. Many life-saving transplant patents are stuck in a wait list, for instance, and many die waiting. I do what I can. I'm a registered organ donor and try not to destroy my liver. I just haven't died yet, and I still need it. But this line of reasoning is off in the weeds, and I won't pursue it further.

Perhaps what it comes down to is that you have a pro-capitalist outlook, and I have They Live sunglasses.

[1]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1126951/

[latexr]

> FWIW, I don't consider surgeons to be extortionists.

Of course, that’s the point of the comparison. If I thought you thought surgeons were extortionists I wouldn’t have used the example because it wouldn’t have served to illustrate the point.

> But this line of reasoning is off in the weeds, and I won't pursue it further.

Indeed, that strayed completely away from the point. This has nothing to do with healthcare.

> Many life-saving transplant patents are stuck in a wait list, for instance, and many die waiting.

I know. I’ve made that point in a sibling comment hours before your post.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48259154

> Perhaps what it comes down to is that you have a pro-capitalist outlook

Making assumptions about strangers on the internet tends to be embarrassing, and this is no exception.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38999857

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46854217

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46853865

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46564646

> and I have They Live sunglasses.

https://xkcd.com/610/

[jason_oster]

> Making assumptions about strangers on the internet tends to be embarrassing, and this is no exception.

I was going to say the same of you.

> https://xkcd.com/610/

Touché.

[throw5]

> It’s like calling surgeons extortionists for having the gall to charge for treating you. Yes, ideally that should be free and available to all

What do you mean by "should be"? Surgery is free and available to everyone. So why would one accuse surgeons of being extortionists? So I am not sure how the surgeon comparison works. That example supports the parent commenter's point that these extensions should be free.

Of course, there is still the practical question of who will do the work and how they will make a living. We can do what we do for surgeons. Maybe have a nonprofit consortium that people fund, so that it can support the extension developers. Yes, people would be spending money either way, but at least that money would be going toward a larger cause. Just like we pay taxes so the government can fund surgeons, who can then treat people.

[latexr]

> What do you mean by "should be"?

I meant “would be”. Not that I think it makes that much difference here.

> Surgery is free and available to everyone.

That’s definitely not true worldwide. I think if you stop for a minute you can come up with at least one country. And even in those where it is free in public hospitals, it’s not uncommon for some to have a waitlist of years to the point you can die before it even happens. Also, did you know there are places where they don’t even have hospitals, let alone surgeons? The world is a big place, lots of disparity.

> So why would one accuse surgeons of being extortionists?

Even given all that, I think if you engage with the argument in good faith and steel man it instead of nitpicking, you’ll understand the point and can come up with your own example to satisfy you. Just pick a job you can’t do and have to pay for someone to fix something which wasn’t your fault or the fault of the other person. I believe you’re a smart person and could surely come up with something with little effort.

> there is still the practical question of who will do the work and how they will make a living.

That’s… The point. Especially for programmers, how many of us would do this shit for free, full time and beyond, for the sole purpose of benefiting others, if we had the opportunity to because we didn’t have to worry about basic needs? A large number. Way less than the number of programmers in the world right now, and that’s a good thing.

> Maybe have a nonprofit consortium that people fund

Fantastic idea. Are you doing it? Can you? Do you know where to start? And if you can’t, is that your fault? Should you be blamed for it? Are you an extortionist? Do you have gall for not doing it?

[throw5]

All fair points. Sorry, I spend a lot of time on regional forums, and I had a brain malfunction and forgot that when I write on HN, I am writing on a worldwide forum. Sorry for the unnecessary nitpicking.

Re non profit, I do donate to a few nonprofits I like, like those working on fediverse and my favorite langs. But I don't know of anything that does this for extensions. I'd have definitely voted with money if something was there. So, yeah, no, I am not doing anything to start a nonprofit for extensions. You have a good point.

[latexr]

> Sorry for the unnecessary nitpicking.

Thank you for the apology. Accepted.

> I do donate to a few nonprofits I like, like those working on fediverse and my favorite langs.

You already do more than most, and I commend you for it.

> So, yeah, no, I am not doing anything to start a nonprofit for extensions. You have a good point.

To clarify, the idea here was in no way to put you on the spot. Rather, what I’m saying is that none of us are doing so and that it’s not really fair to blame anyone for it. Most people don’t know how or don’t have the skills or inclination, and that’s understandable.