[an0malous]

I went through the whole process of seeing an ENT, using the machine for the at-home sleep study so insurance would give me a CPAP, then not being able to sleep with a CPAP, and over the course of a couple years I fixed my sleep apnea by fixing my posture and breathing. If you have forward head posture or are not used to breathing through your nose, you might also benefit from this. I think it’s kind of crazy that we do surgeries and take medicine that modifies your brain chemistry for what I believe in many cases is a structural issue.

If you’re curious to try this, read James Nestor’s book Breath, do yoga with breathing exercises, or see a physical therapist. It takes time to fix these structural issues, but you can literally change the shape of your nose, palate, and jaw from just practice.

Here’s a quick exercise you could try. Sit up, relax your body, breathe in through your nose, and feel the breath move up your nose, down to the base of your skull, down your neck, and then as far down your spine as you can. The air isn’t literally moving through these areas, but you should feel a current of sensations moving roughly along that path. As you breathe out, follow the current in the opposite direction. As you tune into this current, your neck and back will naturally straighten a bit, it should feel very natural and even pleasant. Keep your body relaxed and allow your neck and back to align with this current. If you keep doing this regularly it should help improve your posture and breathing. This is basically a pranayama / yoga breathing exercise. If it feels painful, definitely stop and try physical therapy or working with a hatha yoga instructor who can give you more guided instruction.

I used to snore so badly it sounded like, without much exaggeration, a dying elephant. I only did this exercise for a couple years and it slowly improved over that time, and now I sleep quietly.

[justinator]

> what I believe in many cases is a structural issue

Many cases it is not. I'm not trying to be a contrarian but I don't want to plant hope in some people who suffer from sleep apnea thinking it's something they can just do breathing exercises for.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/central-sleep...

[UberFly]

In MOST cases it actually is a structural issue. The brain anomaly that causes paused and intermittent breathing is much more rare.

[justinator]

Maybe? I didn't write "most", I wrote "many". What do you have a problem with syaing "many" instead of "all"

I suffer from obstructive sleep apnea, but I would never, ever tell people that their sleep apnea HAS to be obstructive too.

It's like telling a Type 1 Diabetic that they had a friend with diabetes that "cured" themselves with diet. We're talking about two different problems, and we don't discount the Type 1 Diabetic because there are Type 2 Diabetics.

[ajkjk]

fwiw I really believe it is, my sleep problems come and go based on entirely physical variables--how flexible I feel, how much time I spent "shrimping", how tight my back and neck are.

Personally I would not be surprised at all if in 50-100 years we look back on this era as one where we massively overprescribed CPAP machines to treat an entirely-fixable condition in most people (alongside all the other medical interventions that will turn out to be bandaid fixes for actually fixable problems). I'm aware this is a bit of an outlandish take. But you can tell how many people's breathing and posture is bad just by existing in the world for ten minutes and looking at them. I think it's really an epidemic.

[JoeyJoJoJr]

I don’t think it’s an outlandish take at all. You can possibly also put orthotics and spectacles in the list of interventions as solutions to problems largely induced by unnatural adaptations to an unnatural environment.

[ajkjk]

yeah... mostly I said it that way because this take upsets some people. The full list (which I think are 80+% fixable by lifestyle) is something like: sleep apnea, obesity, back pain, most things that require physical therapy outside of injuries, probably orthotics and myopia, depression, ADHD, anxiety... probably there are others I'm not thinking of also.

I would like to also include cancers since we cause most of them but that is maybe a different category. Although I have heard of theories that suggest diet can reduce skin cancer (e.g. the mediterranean diet phenomenon) as well as one that suggests exercise can reduce prostate cancer (by strengthening the muscles surrounding veins to prevent testosterone from leaking into the prostate), and of course smoking-related cancers are entirely preventable, so I would not be surprised if there are a lot more that are prevented by health lifestyles.

Generally it doesn't seem to work to just tell people to be healthy, though; to really get any of this work you need society at large to be structured in a healthy way so that it becomes the default instead of an act of willpower. But that seems.. imminently doable, if people want to do it. However it's a huge change, so it takes a movement. For example you pretty much have to make people's lifestyles more walking-oriented, which means rearranging society completely.

[justinator]

Which physical therapies are "interventions as solutions to problems largely induced by unnatural adaptations to an unnatural environment"?

As a math and physics expert, you also claim to be proficient at body movement. Go off king, I'll wait. And AHDH huh? Cancer, uhuh. You're a pyschoholigist and doctor too.

Keep going Dunning-Kruger.

F'n hell yn.

[ajkjk]

huh? I said nothing of the sort. They're hunches.

Like: for example, it seems fairly obvious that some societal-level change happened around the 70s or 80s that triggered our modern obesity epidemics. My personal best guess is that it was the rise of processed foods messing up people's gut bacteria, but I have no actual idea. Nonetheless: you can spend as much time and energy (as a society) as you want curing obesity, but if ultimately the cause is in our food quality, then the "right" fix is obviously to fix that. The same claim applies to skin cancer and dietary connections: if the Mediterranean diet or general food quality is responsible for lower incidence of cancers in those places, then ... food quality should be fixed, right? (and sun exposure, of course, is another variable that you can just do things about).

You don't have to be an expert to think that has some validity. It's obvious. I am just quoting the expert theories, anyway.

The point really is: interventions like 'change the quality of food in America' are not things doctors can, like, prescribe to people. But they are things we can aspire to do. They will just take social movements instead of medical treatments to pull off.

[an0malous]

Sure, and I wouldn’t tell someone to not see an ENT, and maybe a CPAP, surgery, or this pill are the right solution for you. I’m just throwing out another option to consider with different tradeoffs.

[luxuryballs]

To expand on this, the posture is really so important, this muscle the iliopsoas connects inner hip to low back on opposite sides, forward head sometimes also has anterior pelvic tilt, anyways your diaphragm is connected to this muscle and if it’s tight, or holding your pelvic in a tilt, it can make the diaphragm not be able to take full breaths. I’ve done some relaxation stretches you can search for this muscle, like laying down with one knee bent and leg up like a square and other leg straight out or slightly elevated, and “dead bug” yoga, and found my breathing suddenly improved on several occasions.

[jfengel]

Nestor's book didn't feel right. I don't think he's a crank, or that he's entirely wrong, but the idea that we're breathing wrong feels really unlikely. You don't have to be taught to breathe.

I'm sure that many of the lessons in the book are applicable and there is much to learn. But a lot of it felt like woo, even though I know full well that the author is a well-respected journalist.

I'd really like to hear a sound review from someone who knows the domain better than me.

[array_key_first]

You can generally see who has sleep apnea just by looking at their face - there's a particular anatomy that comes with heavy mouth breathing and obstructive sleep apnea. If you speak to people who have obstructive sleep apnea, virtually all of them report mouth breathing and mouth dryness.

I think, probably, there's some structural elements that can make mouth breathing more attractive or easier. But, mouth breathing doesn't actually work well for the breathing part. So, for those people, they experience obstructive sleep apnea. For others, they don't. I have spoken to sprinters who have told me that even sprinting is easier to do with nose breathing. But, for others, they cannot even sleep while nose breathing.

So, I definitely believe there are structural elements at play with breathing.

[matsemann]

> You don't have to be taught to breathe.

You sure? Haven't read the book / heard of the author. But after I started freediving and training holding my breath (also called static / dynamic apnea lol) and working a lot on related stuff, I realized I was mostly breathing shallow and with my chest, and not deep with my abdomen.

Now I notice it in others. I don't know if it matters in the end. But I breathe a couple of times a minute and then I hear people next to me quickly breathing in and out constantly like a rabbit. Seems stressful?

[unfitted2545]

There's also the fact that using digital devices negatively affects our breathing a lot: https://www.npr.org/2024/06/10/1247296780/screen-apnea-why-s...

Considering how much we use them now it could change the default state significantly, and maybe we do have to consciously relearn the best way to breath.

[an0malous]

> You don't have to be taught to breathe.

That’s where I would disagree. Sure there’s a baseline of breathing that everyone does otherwise they’d be dead, but I think the ceiling towards skillful breathing is very high. The difference is more obvious under athletic conditions like if you’re running or biking, just improving your breathing rhythm can improve your performance. There’s even a proper way to breathe if you’re weightlifting, some people might pick it up naturally but I know it’s also commonly taught.

In psychology I’m pretty sure it’s well established and not pseudo science that certain breathing rhythms can increase your energy or decrease your anxiety, I think I read that they teach box breathing to some parts of the military to help keep them calm during missions.

So there’s definitely a range of breathing ability for specific tasks.

[pmcg]

I haven't read his book, so I don't know how much of a kook or grifter I would judge this guy to be, and I'm always dubious about things, but I try to remember that even kooks and grifters sometimes (not always!) have genuinely useful things in what they're saying. They might not be the best person to say it, and their suggestions might not always be the best way to make use of the useful bits. But just because someone is trying to make money from spreading their message doesn't make it all BS.

(I think I'm mostly agreeing with you.)

[pmcg]

I had a similar experience, with a slightly different approach (mouth tape and a nose dilator) but seemingly similar outcome. I like that you did it just through exercises with no mechanical intervention. Inspiring.

[an0malous]

Thank you! I saw you mentioned mewing in your comment, they teach you that in some pranayama exercises as well and I agree it’s a great addition. It feels unnatural at first but when you get used to it, it’s almost like bracing your palate with your tongue allows you to pull air in through your nose more smoothly and with more power.

I’ve found this is all really worth learning, even if you don’t have sleep apnea. I feel more clear headed and energized when I can breath through my nose now.

[pmcg]

That's fascinating, I just did some reading on this - I had not known that the basic technique of "mewing" is very similar if not identical to something that's been practiced in yoga for thousands of years. That in itself doesn't speak to its effectiveness necessarily but on the surface it's a different way to look at it than as just a modern fad.

Regardless, it doesn't cost anything to try, seems no danger in it and it seems logical that it could help.

[krackers]

>basic technique of "mewing" is very similar if not identical to something that's been practiced in yoga for thousands of years

Can you elaborate more on this? I also assume by "mewing" you mean putting the tip of your tongue on your hard palette right behind your upper incisor, and letting the rest of the tongue suction against the hard (and soft) palette. Surprisingly for something that seems to be so "popular" in "broscience" I find it hard to find any canonical definition or technique.

[cakealert]

Instead of a mouth tape get one of those moldable plastic mouth guard things from amazon. And mold the hole shut.

[chubot]

Yup totally, how you breathe during the day is a habit that basically persists at night

So breathing better during the day can be trained, even at an old age, and it improves sleep

Not everyone breathes suboptimally of course, but I think more do than realize it. There’s a reason that breath work is in the traditions of many different cultures, and why it survived

But things like this aren’t necessarily profitable or worth a doctor’s time, so you have to do them yourself, or see therapists, etc

I had a good experience with a myofunctional therapist and posture therapist

[procone]

Oh you don't say? I'm genuinely curious to know what you reduced your AHI to with these exercises. Or are you just making things up?

Yeah we'll go with fabrications based solely on this sentence "But things like this aren’t necessarily profitable or worth a doctor’s time, so you have to do them yourself, or see therapists, etc"

[krackers]

I thought one of the main issues is that during sleep you lose muscle tone and control, so no matter how much you do myofacial therapy while awake it doesn't really matter much in preventing your tongue from falling back when asleep.

[kombine]

Thank you for this, I will definitely try it today! What is your opinion on Wim Hof breathing exercises, are they helpful in a similar way? I am asking because I do them occasionally and feel great every time.

[an0malous]

I’m not super familiar with them, I know some exercises focus on just your breathing rhythm and those probably won’t help with postural issues, but I think any breath exercises that involve feeling your breath in your body will help.

[Mistletoe]

Did you get a second sleep study after your breathing changes to confirm it fixed it?

[an0malous]

No but I used Snore Lab app as well as Apple’s sleep tracking app, in addition to my subjective experience of not having a sore throat and feeling more refreshed in the mornings

[procone]

What a ridiculous post. Please leave the Reddit pseudoscience at the door.

There are researchers actively working and studying people with sleep apnea. They're not suffering from "forward head posture" or "breathing wrong".

I have severe sleep apnea and no amount of "breathing exercises" are going to cause my soft palate to uncollapse itself while I'm trying to get REM sleep.

[0xack]

Its been established head posture is a factor. It’s also intuitive - the posture of your head affects the angle of your airway. This is why some patients wear cervical braces to sleep.

[tedk-42]

Do you run regularly?

Overweight by chance?

I've put on a bit of weight sunce having kids and my breathing at night is much worse than before.

[procone]

You have no idea what you're talking about and it shows by what you choose to type.

It's not exclusively caused by fitness or lack thereof. A cursory Google search would show you this. It's not "breathing at night", it's literally suffocating in your sleep.

This place used to be full of intellectuals. It's a real shame.

[tedk-42]

Wow you sound very defensive.

If it's not obvious I meant breathing while sleeping at night in a sleep apnea discussion, I think you need to analyse your own internal bias and possible self-hate.

I'm very sure i have sleep apnea now as i wake up literally in panic where i'm not breathing + have a full bladder and need to go a few times a night (which i've read as a kidney response with sleep apnea).

As i said this all came about with extra weight gain in the past few months.

[procone]

Gross.

[tedk-42]

Wow what a trash discussion this was.

Turns out it was you who are polluting this community with low IQ takes.

[array_key_first]

I mean naturally the question is why do some people's soft palate collapse while sleeping while others don't.

Could it possible be due to musculature and structure of the palate and tongue? And, if it is, could therapy help mitigate it?

I mean, just consider the conditions physical therapy can help with today. Is it really so out of the question that physical therapy could help obstructive sleep apnea?

[deepspace]

Yes! It is a shame that this kind of nonsense gets upvoted. Pure snake oil.

[an0malous]

I’m not selling anything, you can learn any of these exercises online for free and there’s no risk. The guy in the article is the one trying to make billions of dollars selling you a pill that alters your brain chemistry and you’ll need to buy monthly for the rest of your life.