[1659447091]

But is that not also "following a path laid out by someone else?"

How do we know when we "are [...] being the "authentic you"" when so much of our early lives have been conditioned by our environment if we never challenge that by looking for other ways; be that through exploring western "self-help", Chinese philosophy, or both (and others).

Maybe it's through that action, the West's obsession with "self-help" that demands they do things to realize their special-ness, that allows them to actually discover the way, or non action, or their way. To say that another persons self-cultivation, or development, journey is the wrong way and that what is best for them is to do nothing is a mirror of the thing you disparage.

[abroadwin]

> But is that not also "following a path laid out by someone else?"

Not really. I'd use the analogy of breathing. Imagine you're convinced that you need to breathe properly, so you consciously obsess over each breath (congratulations: you are now breathing manually). Then someone comes along and says "you know, you can just breathe without thinking about doing it right."

Is letting go of that manual breathing and just breathing without thinking about it following a path laid out by someone else?

[1659447091]

Not a great analogy* tbh, I don't really follow but I think I understand what you are trying to get at. Forgive me if I am off the mark here

I think it misses the point of telling someone in search of self-help that the true way to self-help is "non-action/do nothing" to get there -- well you are now telling someone in the middle of a search for something they may not completely understand that they are looking in the wrong place and the correct place is "over here".

Now they are following your directions and still searching. When it's the searching that keeps them up at night.

*(as in someone becoming obsessed with breathing starts manual breathing -- to get their breathing stronger because they were unfulfilled with the previous way -- to support their weaker lungs [or why ever they started], and are told you don't have to do that you can breath without thinking (except that was the og problem), will not all of a sudden be, wow you are right I can breathe on my own like before and my previous issues that led me to try different suddenly disappeared when I went back to improper automatic breathing where I was breathing too short, too fast and through my mouth)

[ElProlactin]

Most people have experienced what 無為 speaks to without even knowing about the concept or trying to follow it.

That's the whole point. In fact, if you're trying too hard to achieve 無為, you defeat the purpose.

[1659447091]

Exactly my point

> Most people

I could say "most people" are also unsatisfied. We follow what is given to us and at some point, usually near mid-age people are sick of it and try to find another way...others just keep on keeping on; some satisfied, some pretending to be -- we really can't know, but given the age of my circle, I find it's a lot of pretending. So it may look like they found 無為 without knowing or searching, but overcoming that part that was given to us thats says they should be happy because where they are turns out to be another mask.

On a smaller scale I have seen the realization of that, then the search through western self-help (or religion) happens that ended up leading to 無為 without ever knowing it. Usually because at some point it pushes them over the "f-this edge". While not an observation of most people, they are patterns I keep coming across getting older.

I bring it up because sometimes we simply need to let others follow their own "self-help" (self-cultivation) path without interfering or telling them how they are doing it wrong. When you tell them they need 無為, and not their "self-help" books, and if they listen, then they focus on trying to achieve it. Which as you say, defeat(s) the purpose.