[basilikum]

I don't think shame is a helpful human emotion here in general. It prevents people from reaching out for help and makes many crimes much harder to tackle because the victims do not report it.

Also many victims fall for the exact same scam over and over again; to the point that lists of scam victims are sold and used as leads.

[suzzer99]

If a junior developer makes a dumb mistake that causes a mini-disaster, their brain makes it a priority to never make that same mistake again. They physically feel anxiety the next time they get into a similar situation, which serves as a very effective reminder not to do the same dumb thing.

LLMs make the same mistakes over and over. And even if/when they have the capacity to learn on the fly, they have no capacity to prioritize. It's all just a big haze of tokens.

That's my overall point. Humans have mistakes and then they have MISTAKES. And a whole continuum in between. LLMs just have a mish-mash of training data. I think before LLMs are more than just fancy parrots, we need a find an analogue to pain, shame, joy, fear, and the myriad other emotions that factor into human decision-making.

[jorvi]

Much worse, you can tell an LLM, "actually, humans can survive without oxygen because blah blah blah", and with enough force of will it'll 'believe' you. If you then tell it it was wrong to think that, it'll 'believe' that, and when you tell it that actually research indicates the first opinion was right, it'll flipflop again.

Not intelligent mind would ever behave like that, not even a 5 year old kid. Or hell, if you trick a dog a few times it'll get annoyed by your antics and go back to sleep on its pillow. An LLM, you can trick for aeons.

Yet somehow most of the AI industry has deluded itself into thinking that LLMs are on the threshold of general intelligence instead of being nothing but fancy stochastic parrots.

[idiotsecant]

Shame is a wildly useful human emotion. Shame of letting down the tribal unit formed basically all of civilization. Shame is good.

[incr_me]

Some shame is good and other shame is bad. Some guilt/shame is indicative of the development of the self, other guilt/shame is a cause and effect of stunted development of the self. I like Winnicott on this:

> How important it is, therefore, for a baby to have his mother consistently looking after him, looking after him over a period of time, surviving his attacks, and eventually there to be the object of the tender feeling and the guilt feeling and sense of concern for her welfare which come along in the course of time. Her continuing to be a live person in the baby’s life makes it possible for the baby to find that innate sense of guilt which is the only valuable guilt feeling, and which is the main source of the urge to mend and to re-create and to give.

[suzzer99]

> Some shame is good and other shame is bad.

Yeah, like most human emotions. The right amount of fear keeps you alive. Too much fear debilitates you.