[raphlinus]

The issue is not type punning (itself a very common source of UB), but the fact that the `bytes` pointer might not be int-aligned. The spec is clear that the creation (not just the dereferencing) of an unaligned pointer is UB, see 6.3.2.3 paragraph 7 of the C11 (draft) spec.

Of course, this exchange just demonstrates the larger point, that even a world-class expert in low level programming can easily make mistakes in spotting potential UB.

[flohofwoe]

> Of course, this exchange just demonstrates the larger point, that even a world-class expert in low level programming can easily make mistakes in spotting potential UB.

A "world-class expert in low level programming" knows that unaligned memory accesses are no problem anymore on most modern CPUs, and that this particular UB in the C standard is bogus and needs to fixed ;)

[formerly_proven]

… it’s only UB if the pointer is actually misaligned. It’s not possible to tell from these two lines whether that’s the case.

[gritzko]

C of course is ancient. It remembers the Cambrian explosion of CPU architectures, twelve-bit bytes and everything like that. I wonder if it is possible to codify some pragmatic subset of it that works nicely on currently available CPUs. Cause the author of the piece goes back in time to prove his point (SPARCs and Alphas).

[dmitrygr]

Fun story: even the latest C spec doesn’t require CHAR_BIT == 8, but it does now codify 2s complement int representation. (IIRC)

[eru]

For unsigned ints, or also for signed ints?

[account42]

Two's complement is a representation specifically for signed integers.

[dmitrygr]

For signed. Unsigned overflow was defined for a while now.

[gblargg]

And unsigned negation is two's complement negation as well (-u = 0-u).

[dmitrygr]

That cast is valid. Spec does not guarantee same bit sequence for resulting pointer and source pointer. But as the cast is explicitly allowed, it is not UB. Compiler is free to round the pointer down. Or up. Or even sideways. All ok. Dereferencing it — indeed not ok. But the cast is explicitly allowed and not UB.

Pointer casts changing pointer bit sequences is common on weird platforms (eg: some TI DSPs, PIC, and aarch64+PAC). And it is valid as per spec. Pointer assignment is not required to be the same as memcpy-ing the pointer unto a pointer to another type.

You misunderstood the spec. No promises are made that that cast copies the pointer bit for bit (and thus creates an invalid pointer). Therefore, your objection to invalid pointers is null and void. :)

[raphlinus]

I'm not assuming anything about bit representations. In this case, the spec language is quite clear and unambiguous.

6.3.2.3 paragraph 7: A pointer to an object type may be converted to a pointer to a different object type. If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned[footnote 68]) for the referenced type, the behavior is undefined. Otherwise, when converted back again, the result shall compare equal to the original pointer. When a pointer to an object is converted to a pointer to a character type, the result points to the lowest addressed byte of the object. Successive increments of the result, up to the size of the object, yield pointers to the remaining bytes of the object.

This is a subsection of section 6.3 which describes conversions, which include both implicit and conversions from a cast operation. This language is not saying anything about bit representations or derefencing.

I happen to be wearing my undefined behavior shirt at the moment, which lends me an extra layer of authority. I'm at RustWeek in Utrecht, and it's one of my favorite shirts to wear at Rust conferences. But let's say for the sake of argument that you are right and I am indeed misunderstanding the spec. Then the logical conclusion is that it's very difficult for even experienced programmers to agree on basic interpretations of what is and what isn't UB in C.

[dmitrygr]

I do not see there a promise that the cast will produce an invalid pointer, nor anything prohibiting the compiler from rounding the pointer down, thus producing a valid one. “Converted” does not require bit copy. I don’t see how this interpretation is against any section of the spec.

[dwattttt]

I also do not see any requirement in the quoted text that the casted pointer be dereferenced before noting "the behavior is undefined".

In practice performing a cast doesn't really do much until you dereference, but without a carve out in the spec, it does really mean "the behavior is undefined".

[cyclopeanutopia]

> Otherwise, when converted back again, the result shall compare equal to the original pointer.

Doesn't this part exclude the possibility of rounding down?

[dmitrygr]

No cause that requires initial alignment.

[pjc50]

> rounding the pointer down, thus producing a valid one

A "valid" pointer to the wrong object?

[dmitrygr]

Which is ok since it is UB to deref