[dogonwheels]

Nothing more than anecdote, but hey:

My Yorkshire village has a playground. They installed CCTV last month. More people complain about the main road changing from a 40mph to 30mph. I don't care if the 'they' is government or centralised or whatever. The numbness to surveillance unsettles me greatly.

[mibbitier]

What do you think they're doing with the CCTV?

They're almost certainly recording to a VHS tape, which cycles every couple of days.

IF some crime or vandalism happens on the playground, they will then grab the tapes, and check them. The chances of a conviction will be far higher with video evidence.

It's not "numbness to surveillance", because it's not really surveillance.

If you want to be free to take videos and photos of random places/things without being arrested, you should also allow that same freedom to owners of property who want to reduce crime.

[jlgreco]

I think an important realization is that the public is not generally okay with CCTV installations when they find out they are the recycling VHS type. They are okay with them by default, and don't even bother asking.

I suspect that if you stop random people on the street, point to a camera, and ask them "What kind of camera is that?" the most common response will be along the lines of "I don't know, who cares?" These would presumably be the same people who don't pay CCTV cameras any mind in their day to day lives.

It is not that people don't mind because they are recycling VHS cameras placed by private citizens, but rather that they just don't care regardless. The fact that there is a widespread myth that all the cameras are government installed and networked actually drives home this point. People incorrectly think this and they still don't really care.

[mibbitier]

That's right. Because the number of instances of "My life was ruined by the state who monitored my every move", or "My love life was ruined when my wife was able to bribe the CCTV operator to find out about my affair"... they don't happen do they.

If CCTV was a problem for people, we'd hear about it. But it's not, so we don't.

The fact I visited a certain shop is on record for 2 days on a crappy VHS tape.... why do I care?

Some tourist probably also took my photograph, but I'm not going to stress about that either.

[jlgreco]

Nobody, as I read it, is suggesting that the current CCTV installations, or even the imagined CCTV installations, present a threat themselves.

The damage being done, in my opinion, is a shifting of the Overton window. It changes our perception of normal so that other hypothetical, actually dangerous or sinister, developments will not seem as unusual or outside the norm.

There is not a massive tracking network of CCTV cameras today, but people seem to have the idea that such a thing exists.. and they don't care. Give it a few more years and you could probably actually install such a system and the only people who said anything would be considered weirdos for caring, just like you find it weird that people are bothered by the current system.

I should emphasis that I do not think the UK is going to turn into East Germany in any foreseeable future.

[mibbitier]

As I say, we've had widespread CCTV in shops in the UK since the 80s. In the last 30 years nothing has particularly changed.

I take your point, in theory an evil genius prime minister could install some mass surveillance system. But what the hell would be the point? And the chance of him not getting found out and called out by the media is negligable. Add to that the utter incompetence of government to do anything IT related, and I think we're pretty safe.

[jlgreco]

As I said, I don't think there is any immediate danger posed by CCTV systems in the UK. You could say I am "concerned" in a largely academic manner.

[scotty79]

> They are okay with them by default, and don't even bother asking.

I think it's even stronger.

I for one am not ok with lack of CCTV installations as in:

"They (stole my bike/slashed my tires/robbed my office) and (there was not a single camera to record this/image from only available camera was so crappy that it doesn't help)."

[Evbn]

Why would you imagine it is VHS and not hard drive?

[finnw]

Because at the time it was installed, that was the cheapest option.

[electromagnetic]

Coincidence, but I was from Yorkshire and the village I grew up in put a CCTV camera on the community hall to view the playground as it had gotten to the point that a couple days couldn't go by without someone finding a dirty needle. Once that camera went up, the junkies didn't go there anymore.

A camera is far more cost effective to the parish council than sending someone to search for health hazards every morning.