[analog31]

>>> It's the human value that welcomed slaves, prostitutes, wretches, merchants and kings as peers in something grander than economy or state or lineage or tribe or creed.

This sounds a lot like an appeal to democracy, yet it often seems that religion is at odds with democracy in our world. And given the choice between living in a religious society or a democratic one, I'd choose the democracy any day of the week. Not just for my own prosperity, but for the overall welfare of everybody.

The one thing that has heartened me about the new Pope is that he has spoken favorably about democracy.

[graemep]

Modern democracy developed in societies dominated by religious values and at least partly because of those values.

What you describe as an appeal to democracy could also be described as a statement of Christian values. The idea that every individual matters and is loved by God is a core belief. There are some quotes in my other comments, but I think this is worth adding. https://biblehub.com/galatians/3-28.htm

[analog31]

This is indeed the paradox. I call it a paradox because it seems like religions value those things on paper but religious societies counteract them. I'm as puzzled as anybody as to the root cause.

The development of democracy may have been a reaction of religious people towards their own religions.

[graemep]

It depends on what you mean by a religious society. Do you mean theocracies ? Democracies with a religious electorate? Countries with an established religion?

[analog31]

Yes. ;-)

Granted there are only so many countries, so it would be hard to see a clear statistical picture. And it's complicated by the fact that religion may be secondary to democracy as a predictor of well-being. But I don't know of a country right now (or a region in the US) where the influence of religion on governance is a cause for optimism about the future of democracy.

[graemep]

I can think of one quite easily! I am in the UK where the influence of religion on politics is very much positive IMO. For example, we have an established church that often speaks up for the poor, against war, etc. Religion is in the forefront of practical action: it is a disgrace we need good banks, but the religious took the lead in filling that need (I see the same around the world too).

Also, historically we would not have democracy as we know it without the moral framework of religious ideas. I am guessing you are American and the idea of separation of church and state can be traced back to a long line of development that started with "give to Caesar what is Caesar's". Even in the UK, despite the efforts of Henry VIII, state control of the church faded and we are a de facto secular democracy.

Yes, my examples and arguments are all Christian, but different religions have different values and histories so you cannot generalise across all of them and I am sticking to what I know. I also think taking a long term historical view makes it look a lot more positive. Have you read Dominion by Tom Holland?

[analog31]

Indeed, I had forgotten about England. I'll have to think about it, because it was absent from my long list of priors. Here in the US, it's generally assumed that the countries "across the pond" are less religious.

The US is presently ruled by a overtly religious party that rejects church-state separation. Our President sells Bibles and prays in public with his cabinet. His party is supported by a predominantly religious electoral "base." And the influence of this system is not limited to one errant president, but has been systematically pursued for decades.

I hope that their ideas are distortions of true religious doctrine, but I can't prove it, and have no power to challenge them except in the voting booth.

I learned an alternate take on "give unto Caesar" which was that Caesar's money represented the wealth of this world, which is worthless compared to the infinite wealth of the spiritual world. The point was for Christians to remain aloof from earthly problems such as governance, which were expected to be temporary.

I don't doubt that religions promote virtuous ideals. And I don't expect religion to vanish, so if democracy has religious roots, those roots won't suddenly be forgotten.