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by mathisfun123 33 days ago
Yes it's called being XYed and it's infuriating when some condescending person decides they know so much better than you that even your question is wrong.
2 comments

What resonated with me in this article was that there's something about question itself that seems off. And that's even more the case if you answer a lot of people's questions on similar topics. This guy's post is obviously coming rom that standpoint, he's an expert on the software he's supporting people to use.

But if you genuinely find that you're often being guided to Y when your actual need is X then perhaps you need to think about how you approach it. For example, are you including enough context of why you're asking the question in the first place?

After becoming familiar with XY I have learned to specify "yes this is really the problem I'm trying to solve". Invariably you still get people asking "are you sure".
If you are sure, you're generally not going to answer "Yea, I'm sure", you'll answer "Yea, I'm sure because A, B, C"

In fact, if you're asking on a forum about how to solve X, be sure to add "because A, B, C" or you're just wasting everyone else's fucking time. The more details you put up front, the more apt you're going to get the answer you're looking for in the first place instead of wasting everyone elses time of exploring the problem space.

> you're just wasting everyone else's fucking time

you sure you're not the one wasting people's time by demanding they convince you of something you don't have any need to be convinced of - like did you know that just answering a question at face value is a completely plausible option?

>face value

Funny term to use as it has a very particular meaning of something that cannot/should not be interpreted because it is well defined.

This is a common flaw of the programmer type, especially when they go about writing code and documentation. That is, that what they are writing can only be interpreted in one way.

Then they toss it out into the real world and it turns out every human has a different interpretation, the runtime operates differently based on the phase of the moon, and even the compiler seems to be making its own best guess based on undefined behavior.

The value of int is typically well defined, but once you start stacking up these well defined bits, subjectivity quickly takes over.

> define: face value

> 3. Figurative Usage ("Taking at face value")When used in everyday language as a phrase, "taking something at face value" means accepting a statement, situation, or person exactly as they appear or are presented, without digging deeper for hidden meanings, motives, or questioning their authenticity

...

not sure what version of the english language you're using but in colloquial english "taking something at face value" means having a good faith interpretation.

In this context your question is likely a request for help, yet you're unwilling to take the time to include the relevant information in that question.

The fact you're complaining about the this, rather than modifying your own behaviour in a way that improves people's chances of helping you, seems quite extraordinary.

What if they do, in fact, have the experience to “know better”?
What if they don't, in fact, have more experience than me?

Edit: this is why tech people are insufferable socially. In any other walk of life assuming you know more than someone is a manifestly obvious faux pas.

Then solve the problem yourself? Why are you asking someone who knows less than you?

We need a word for the inverse of being XY'd for when someone asks an XY question but is too proud to accept there's a better alternative to X

> Then solve the problem yourself? Why are you asking someone who knows less than you?

you seem to completely misunderstand XY: it's not someone giving you the right solution to your problem which you aren't capable of arriving at yourself. it's someone telling you the problem you're having isn't the one you should be solving. it happens very frequently that some arrogant person is 100% certain X problem isn't possible, or isn't really happening, or isn't really the source of issues and they try to gaslight you into believing you've made a mistake in your reasoning and you should solve problem Y instead. you know... kind of like how you're doing right now...

You are right, we are operating on different definitions of the XY problem. The definition I prefer is the one described here: https://xyproblem.info/
This is a hypothetical, not an assumption. I’m interested in your response to the hypothetical.

As a side note, experience isn’t a unidimensional value that is directly comparable. You can have more experience than someone else in one dimension, and the other person can have more experience than you in a different dimension. I’d never argue with my mother about how to perform a blood draw.

You answered your own question:

> experience isn’t a unidimensional value that is directly comparable. You can have more experience than someone else in one dimension, and the other person can have more experience than you in a different dimension.

When two such people communicate, it's rarely clear who knows more. Typically, I know more about the task I'm working on, and he knows more about X, and that's why I'm asking him about X. Sure, if he wants to know what I'm working on - happy to engage, provided he doesn't withhold the information I'm asking for.

Useful conversation relies on mutual purpose.

I already implicitly responded: this should be handled like in any other walk of life - a few probing questions, maybe a preceding dialogue, etc. Admittedly tech people probably don't know how to handle this outside of tech either <shrug>