[JumpCrisscross]

> The Israeli government isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks' AIPAC isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks' Jewish National Fund isn't a 'loose collection of aligned folks'

Sure. These are coherent organisations. Talking about them is meaningful. Talking about "Zionists" is nonsense.

> what does it take for a peoples to establish their own 'Jewish nation-state' on a bit of land that had people living there already?

Lots of options! Ben-Gurion's was a supremacist one. (I wouldn't argue it was fascist.)

Look, you're making a good argument the people and groups you're citing have elements of these traits. Again, that's meaningful. Being trope-y and going off about Zionists will appeal to people who already agree with you, and that's fine, ra ra-ing is fun, but it isn't intellectually honest or particulalry productive other than for stroking the egos of folks who turned this into their pet discussion topic.

[ebbi]

You're living up to your handle quite well, 'JumpCrisscross'ing from the point here - Zionism is an ideology, and it drives the actions of those individuals and groups that align to that ideology.

You can try and intellectually criss cross all you want, but the reality is always there: Zionism is a supremacist ideology that used violence to achieve its aims.

> Lots of options!

See, you couldn't even be intellectually honest and state the option Zionists did use!

It's not me being trope-y, it's just you trying to deflect and defend this horrid ideology.

> stroking the egos of folks who turned this into their pet discussion topic

I'm sorry that talking about, and advocating for, people that are being massacred today is a 'pet discussion topic'.

[JumpCrisscross]

> you couldn't even be intellectually honest and state the option Zionists did use!

Again, we can meaningfully talk about the choices Ben-Gurion, Israel and Netanyahu make. Broadening that to “Zionists” is sloganeering, not advocacy or discussion.

> talking about, and advocating for

Going off on a rant isn’t advocating for anything. It isn’t useless. But rallying a base needs an end to be productive. Otherwise it’s self serving.

My pet war is Ukraine. The folks who go off on rants about all Russians being monsters through and through absolutely undermine the cause of the people they purport to help. (I’ve done it. It’s emotionally satisfying when you’re angry and it feels like nobody cares.)