[resters]

This failure is human laziness, not an issue with the technology. People who use AI because they are trying to avoid doing work fall into a completely different category than people using AI as a force multiplier and for skills/capabilities enhancements / quality improvement.

[OptionOfT]

It's also the only way to get those massive increases in productivity.

[danaris]

This is very much a "you're holding it wrong" response.

If your technology relies on humans using it in ways that go against the ways they are inclined to use them, then that is an issue with the technology.

[majormajor]

I don't think that works as a critique of LLMs because it's far too broadly applicable to well-accepted tools.

Are advanced calculators bad because a student could use the CAS to ace calculus homework, exams or the SAT without actually learning the material?

Is copy/paste bad because a person could use it to copy/paste code from one place to another without noticing some of the areas they need to update in the new location, adding bugs and missing a chance to learn some more subtleties of the system?

Is Git bad because a manager could use it to just measure performance by number of lines of code committed instead of doing more work to actually understand everyone's performance?

Many tools can be used lazily in ways that will directly work against a long term goal of improving knowledge and productivity.

[convolvatron]

but in this case that's exactly what AI is doing, and no more. its filling in the gaps with some plausible sounding goo so that the person doesn't have to worry about the details.

ok, so for some of the jobs we're doing plausible sounding goo is just fine. and that's kinda sad. but the 'just playing around' case is fine for PSG, this isn't a serious effort but just seeing how things might work out without much effort.

taking the remainder, where understanding and intent are important, the role of the ai is produce PSG, but the intentional person now goes through everything and plucks out all the nonsense. this may take more or less time than simply writing it, but we should understand this is resulting in less real engagement by the ultimate author. where this is actually interesting is a parallel to Burrough's cutup method - where source text and audio were randomly scrambled and sometimes really clever and novel stuff pops out.

but to say the current model of vibe coding has much to offer in the second case is really quite unclear. to the extent to which coding is the production of boilerplate is really a problem with APIs and abstraction design. if we can get LLMs to mitigate some of that I the short term without causing too much distraction, that's fine, but we should really be using that to inform the solution to the fundamental problem.

so for me what's missing in your model is how LLMs are supposed to be used 'properly'. I don't think laziness is really the right cut here, make-work is make-work, and there's plenty of real work to be done. but in what sense does LLM usage for code actually improve our understanding of these systems and get us more agency?

[majormajor]

I don't disagree with your take on most jobs or vibe coding as shown in countless proof-of-concept/0-to-1 demos. But the comment I was replying to was dismissing this statement from another commenter:

> People who use AI because they are trying to avoid doing work fall into a completely different category than people using AI as a force multiplier and for skills/capabilities enhancements / quality improvement.

This statement is absolutely true. There are ways to use LLM tools to significantly improve the quality of your work instead of to avoid doing hard work. (And the result can easily become something that requires more hard thought, not less.)

Some that I frequently enjoy that are usable even if you don't want the machine to generate your actual code at all: * consistency-check passes asking it to look for issues or edge cases * evaluation of test coverage to suggest any missed tests or proposed new ones * evaluation of feasibility of different refactoring approaches (chasing down dependencies and call trees much more faster than I would be able to do by hand, etc)

> to the extent to which coding is the production of boilerplate is really a problem with APIs and abstraction design. if we can get LLMs to mitigate some of that I the short term without causing too much distraction, that's fine, but we should really be using that to inform the solution to the fundamental problem.

I generally would disagree with this, though. I don't think there's solely a problem with abstraction design, I think the inherent complexity of many systems in the business world is very high (though obviously different implementations make it different levels of painful). If that's a problem, it's a people/social one, not a technology problem.

In my future we lean into the fact that people want features, they want complexity, for many things - everybody's ideal just-for-them workflow/tooling would look slightly different than the next person's - and use these tools to build things that do more, not less. Like the evolution of spellcheck from something you manually ran, to something that constantly ran, to something that can autocorrect generaly-usefully when typing on a touchscreen.

Let's get back to finding more features/customization to delight users with.

[jnovek]

> This is very much a "you're holding it wrong" response

This isn’t actually an argument for or against anything, I don’t know why people say this. It is entirely possible that people are using this brand new, historically unprecedented tool wrong.

Cars have been a huge success in spite of requiring people to learn a bunch of new things use them.

[danaris]

It's not about having to learn things; it's about the required methods of using the tool going directly against the grain of the way people in general operate.

The classic "you're holding it wrong" was about the iPhone 4: sure, people could learn to hold the iPhone in such a way that they didn't block the particular parts of the antenna that were (supposedly) the problem. But "holding an iPhone" is a fairly natural thing to do, and if the way that people are going to do it naturally doesn't allow its antenna to connect properly, then that's a technology problem, not a human problem.

If the selling point for AI is "you can just talk to it, and it will do stuff for you!" (which may or may not be yours, personally, but it is for a lot of people), then you have to be able to acknowledge that "describing a problem or desire using natural language" is something that humans already do naturally. Thus, if they have to learn to describe their problem in very specific ways in order to get the AI to do what they want, and most people are not doing that, then that's a failure of the technology.

For the specific case at hand, what's being described is similar to the problem of self-driving cars: you're selling the benefit as being the AI taking a lot of the work off your shoulders; all you have to do is constantly check its work just in case it makes a mistake. Which is something that we already know, empirically and with lots and lots of data, that humans are bad at.

Once again, it's a technology issue. Not a human issue.

[satvikpendem]

> selling the benefit as being the AI taking a lot of the work off your shoulders; all you have to do is constantly check its work just in case it makes a mistake.

Cars can take you from place to place much faster than a horse can, all you have to do is learn to drive and constantly keep your hand on the wheel.

Part of using a technology is, well, learning how to use it. It's not the technology's fault that humans are lazy or not able to pay attention and crash.

[necovek]

You do not seem to be engaging in good faith: the GP explicitly discusses "self-driving cars", which come with an expectation that you still need to be "just checking they work well", and we have already seen people not do that, or be bad at it (if you have to jump in in an emergency, that's exactly when you want to have been part of getting to that point to react properly).

You are debating how people should behave, when the reality is that does not happen except for a minority — meaning everybody needs to live in this reality.

[satvikpendem]

I know they said self driving cars, I am talking about manual cars, it's two different points even though both are analogies about cars. I am not debating how people should behave, I am debating their thought that technology should just work without any sort of instruction or learning and if it doesn't then it's a tech error not a human error. My point is that many technologies require learning how to use them, and therefore it sometimes is human error.

[satvikpendem]

Maybe they are holding it wrong then. Like someone else said, people had to be taught how to drive a car and that cannot be in any sense said to be the car's fault.

Some people are lazy, plain and simple. If they want to blindly accept what the LLM tells them without critical analysis and review then that's on them.

[iv4122]

I second this