[karim79]

A friend of mine recently got headhunted by a "defense" company called, and I won't even post the link, it's a website which sounds a bit like Van Helsing with some AI thrown in as a twist. He got an offer of 50k EUR more than his current already ridiculous salary.

I had to say that it's up to you, but don't expect me to still be your friend and still talk to you if you go for that.

"defense"

[yesco]

Friends who give ultimatums like this are usually toxic and worth ditching. Your friend would be better off cutting you off now, regardless of what they decide about the job, than continuing to associate with someone who'd emotionally manipulate them over a career choice. Healthy relationships simply don't look like this, and dressing it up as principle doesn't change what it actually is.

The fact that this feels like a normal thing to say to a friend tells on you a bit. Get out more, spend time with people who don't already share your priors, and the certainty starts to sand down on its own. Threatening your friendships over someone else's career is not the moral high ground, it's just an ugly way to treat people. Humility is understanding you can be wrong about things even when you're certain you're correct.

[brahma-dev]

That's also how fascists get to power. You give them freedom, they use that freedom to get into power and take away your freedom.

[fooker]

Out of curiosity, would you do this to family members accepting a job you don’t approve of too, or just friends?

[karim79]

Yes I would and without question. If by "do" you mean remove myself from the absolute evil that these establishments are, and shame them for it then yes.

I can approve of just about any job unless it's about murdering people because some politician(s) want it.

[csallen]

How many steps removed do you draw the line?

Obviously, it's one thing to be a commander ordering an attack, vs a soldier firing the weapon, vs starting the company to make the weapon, vs being a supplier to the weapons company, vs being an employee at the manufacturer, etc.

What about working for a president who is going to inevitably order hundreds if not thousands murdered? Or voting for said president?

What about paying taxes, knowing those tax dollars will go to missiles and guns used to murder?

(This isn't a criticism of your worldview, by the way. I'm just genuinely curious about how others draw these lines.)

[tamimio]

The line is simple, do you have the choice (personally or influentially) to avoid that? If yes, you draw the line. Can you avoid paying taxes? No, can you influence not to be used as you mentioned? You try. Can you avoid a job that obviously will use your expertise in questionable ways? Yes. The right and wrong is clear, people who try to muddy it they just seek justification.

I personally turned down multiple offers/work when it comes to drones for example, I designed stuff back in 2020 that some companies now just knew about it and its potentials, but when you meet with them and discuss what they are trying to build, you know that whatever they are after can be used in bad faith if the company decided to do so, do you sell your soul for the cash or do you prefer to sleep well at night?

The only exception is whatever you built has no direct or obvious bad faith, you build a library, a gstreamer addon, etc., that can get a pass.

[bulbar]

> Can you avoid paying taxes? No

Of course you can. It's just inconvenient. You could leave the country, break the law or stop getting a taxable income.

It's not that "playing along" isn't a choice. It's just an easy one.

If the CEO of your company changes and turns out to do evil things with the company and the product of your work, would you switch the company?

If the President of your country changes and turns out to do evil things with the country and your taxes, would you switch the country?

The line you draw is always the one of the level of convenience you are targeting for yourself. Not saying there is no point having a line, but it's highly subjective.

[tamimio]

> You could leave the country

Not if you are a US citizen, you pay taxes even if you’re living abroad.

And yes I would switch companies, it’s exactly what I did before, and I will do it again. I can’t switch countries and I don’t think it’s effective like switching companies, but there are other means if your president or PM turned things evil, from pressuring your MP/senator to campaigning against to others. You never succumb to evil things no matter what.

[Retr0id]

I'm not GP but I could've written a similar comment. Personally I don't draw the line based on "proximity to war", but on the choices being made. I think poorly of someone who freely chooses "job directly contributing to war" over "job mostly unrelated to war".

[karim79]

Working on "killy" stuff is bad. That's my whole point. I is l stupid and counterproductive to what we as humanity are supposed to be doing.

[camhart]

You realize what happens if we dont have killy stuff right? We get killed.

[karim79]

Who is "we"? Who is the boogyman and who are the potential victims?

[peyton]

Do you like abortion?

[Erem]

What interesting discussion could the answer to this question yield? People who view abortion as “killy” will possibly take GPs stance toward their family and peers. People who don’t won’t.

And anyways, nobody _likes_ abortion, even if they are committed to it being a woman’s right

[karim79]

This is insane and irrelevant. A whole other discussion which does not belong in the the same light as, let's call it "coding and engineering practices designed to kill people" under the guise of "defending democracies" as if there are any such democracies currently under threat.

[fooker]

Interesting worldview!

[bulbar]

Living in Europe I have a different perspective on defense. Without it, we would already be living in Russian labor camps. You can't just stop funding military and your military industry and expect other actors to just play along and be friendly from now on then.

[LtWorf]

How many times have germany, sweden, italy invaded russia in history and how many times has russia done the opposite?

Either you're going to be surprised or you're just in bad faith.

[bulbar]

When the Nazis attacked, it was important for the Soviets and the world that the Soviets had a huge army. So yeah that kind of supports my argument.

Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Putin transformed the young post cold war democracy of Russia right back into a dictatorship and is now in a full scale war with another country and would have already invaded everything he thinks should be part of 'great Russia'.

A country needs an army because at any time there are just too many aggressors out there. Who that is exactly might change over time, right now Russia clearly is one of them. As the US threatened Greenland and it's raging war against Iran (which course itself is an aggressive dictatorship), it's also a current aggressor against which European countries need an army.

[LtWorf]

They had already been at war with japan for a while at that point…

[bulbar]

If you intend to discuss, you need to state an explicit argument.

[LtWorf]

My argument being that your claim that Russia is capable of invading Europe is fear mongering to convince people to pay for wars they don't need.

[the__alchemist]

I wonder what opinions and values you hold which someone could make a convincing argument for cutting you off about. Or who would find your job offensive.

[karim79]

My job doesn't involve murdering people. It does not contribute to the death of people nor animals. It is somewhat insignificant.

My job does pay my bills and put food on the table but is certainly less glamorous than something which changes the lives of millions of people (though in some way it might). It is definitively inoffensive.

Adding a line of code to a killing machine. That is something else my friend.

[bulbar]

So you don't live in a country supporting another country that's at war or has been at war lately? Otherwise your taxes contribute to the death of people.

People feel much better having some distance from cruelty, that's why they prefer to eat meat from animals that were tortured their whole life and then killed, but somewhere else where your don't see it happening.

[tempaccount5050]

Worrying about what other people think is the biggest waste of energy. I'm glad a lot of people wouldn't be friends with me because of some of my ideals. I don't want to be liked by everyone. Why would you?

[teachrdan]

> I don't want to be liked by everyone. Why would you?

Eh, this is a bit of a straw man, no? It's one thing to be liked by everyone. It's another for a (presumably) long time, close friend to say they can no longer respect you due to your decisions.

In this case, it's someone who is already making a lot of money, who could make even more by working for a company that builds AI killing machines. Telling that person they are making a serious mistake is doing them a favor. Wouldn't you want your friends to do the same for you?

[tempaccount5050]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. "Liking" or blindly accepting everyone regardless of what believe or do just because you have known them for some period of time is silly.

[halestock]

Because society functions a lot better when it has people in it who like each other.

[tempaccount5050]

Homogeny is not good for society.

[halestock]

Nothing I said has anything to do with homogeneity.

[joe_mamba]

> He got an offer of 50k EUR more than his current already ridiculous salary.

Out of curiosity, what's considered an "already ridiculous salary"?

[tastyface]

Gotta say, it’s kinda funny how many people here get triggered by this line of thinking.

"Yes, of course I'd make tools to kill people for money! How dare you unfriend someone for that?"

Telling on themselves.

[LtWorf]

They probably took it very personally because it's what they do.

[camhart]

Shows the value of your friendship.

[karim79]

It does. And he didn't go for it as tempted as he was. Because he knew I was right.

[Erem]

Why do people in this thread detest that a pacifist with conviction exists? I’m not like them, and nobody is telling you to be like them. But having people like that in a population is important lest we become drunk on our ability to destroy our enemies.

[camhart]

I'm fine with there being pacifist. What makes you think I'm opposed them?

What this person is arguing is not for pacifism, its an argument that to be their friend you must agree with them on pacifism.

I have my own thoughts and beliefs. My friends have theirs. They arent all the same. Thats how it should be, and thats healthy. Thats diversity. This "you're dead to me if you dont believe what I believe" culture is idiotic and is not inclusive at all.

[LtWorf]

Would you be friends with a serial killer?

[hackable_sand]

I think so too :)

Friends have to be honest with each other. Friends don't let friends become fascist!

[camhart]

Working for a defense contractor makes you a fascist now?

[brahma-dev]

A logger working for a company cutting a few trees to make furniture is not the same thing as a logger working for a company shredding the whole forest to circulate money.

[dgroshev]

Why?

Have you seen what Russia is doing to Ukraine?

What's wrong with a European company working on not letting the same (or worse) repeat in the Baltic states or Poland?

[blks]

Because weapons will be used and you will have no control over how. And it being a European company doesn’t mean this weapon won’t be sold to Israel eg

[karim79]

Given the current state of things I would say that it's really easy to pivot to "let's sell weapons to whoever wants them". Still presenting a product as a way to defend democracies is comical. At the end of the day, people with money will buy these things and it doesn't matter who because oversight is scarce.

[michaelscott]

Sure, but what _is_ the practical solution to the invasion of a foreign military power on your home soil then? Do you think these systems should only be developed by the government? And if so, do you then apply the same logic to anyone working in the government?

[brahma-dev]

Idea. They can develop all they want, only the government should be the one buying and selling weapons. That way if a government decides to sell weapons to genocidal maniacs, people can vote that government out.

[michaelscott]

This is functionally what already happens. The market to sell into for defense is almost entirely B2G, the only exceptions being places where the existing government is not very strong or centralized

[verisimi]

Which are the clean jobs? Is coding 'good'?

Pretty much the only honest ones I can think of are things plumber, carpenter.

[karanbhangui]

Wait until you learn about the history of the internet on which you're communicating now.