[midtake]

This "car-tinkering app" is used as a glorified GameShark for deleting factory emissions controls, I don't feel sorry for anyone who uses this to roll coal or whatever. Instead of investigating everyone on the list of users of this app, should the government instead ban diesel engines knowing their emissions controls software will be defeated? Should environmental regulations be relaxed? What is really the solution here?

[650REDHAIR]

Or, I don't know, enforce current laws on the books and have cops do their job?

I've watched traffic code enforcement drop to essentially non-existent numbers largely because apathetical agencies and "officer safety" concerns.

I'd rather they go after people actively rolling coal instead of violating the rights of thousands of Americans like me.

[chii]

The enforcement agencies all want easy ways to perform their enforcement duties.

Enforcing it the hard way by catching people in the act, or even spot checking, is difficult, and takes work and budget.

However, in asking such enforcement work to be made easy, the cost is borne by the rest of the innocents in losing their privacy or rights. Individually, each single instance of such loss is minuscule, but collectively it's a huge loss of rights and privacy - not to mention precedence.

[array_key_first]

Cops are worthless but, more importantly, they have huge leverage. They can just stop policing at any time as a form of protest, and departments regularly do that. The system needs fundamental reform.

[therobots927]

Well if they don’t want to get defunded they better start doing their jobs. Not that they were all that useful in the first place. If your house is getting broken into the cops will not be able to help you. So I don’t know what the big deal is about defunding the police. It’s not clear to me what the money is being used for.

[traderj0e]

They want testimonies to use against the app. The solution they're trying to pursue is to outlaw the app, not investigate its users.

[m463]

...via investigating users.

[traderj0e]

That would suggest the users are defendants. They supposedly just want witnesses. I had another comment questioning this though.

[repiret]

Periodic vehicle inspection for emissions and safety compliance. Many jurisdictions already have this for gas engine emissions, a handful of states already have safety inspections. Done right, it can be low burden and low cost, and basically put an end to Def deletion. Done poorly it's grift to the shops that do the inspections, and an economically external annoyance to vehicle owners, and unnecessarily limits the ability of people to tinker with their own vehicles.

[traderj0e]

I don't really care how it affects car modders or people with sports cars. I have a sports car, and yeah the California smog test has been super annoying cause of electrical problems with that are unrelated to its actual emissions, but I knew what I was getting into when I bought something known for unreliability. Fixed it myself. There's a dude across the street with a modded car who always complains he has to bribe the smog guy $500, as if he was forced into driving a track car on the street. I just want regular cars to be drivable without undue burdens, and the enthusiasts can deal with it.

California gasoline tax pisses me off more because it's higher than anywhere else and the money seemingly goes nowhere.

[repiret]

I don't care too much about hot-rodders either. California specifically requires the original emissions equipment remain intact. Here's two cases where that fails:

1. Close to 20 years ago I read about someone who converted a car to an EV with an old electric forklift motor, but then couldn't register the car. It was a model year that still required smog checks, but it couldn't pass a smog check because the original emissions equipment wasn't installed anymore.

2. My brother inherited our dad's 1992 pickup, and tries to keep it in running order mostly out of nostalgia. He would like to replace the engine with a newer model that would burn less fuel, produce more power, and correctly installed, no doubt would have lower emissions. But then it wouldn't pass the smog check, because it wouldn't still have the original emissions equipment.

Having said all that, I agree that it disproportionately impacts the poor, because the poor tend to drive older cars that are more likely to need repairs to pass an inspection, and because the inspection fees make a larger impact on the budget of the poor, and because the employment flexibility to be without their car for half a day for the inspection, or longer if repairs are needed, is not as common among the poor. You could subsidize the inspections for low value cars, which would help with the cost aspect, but I don't know a way to solve the other aspects beyond trying to find the minimum amount of inspection that meets the policy goals.

[sagarm]

The poor are also more likely to be harmed by air pollution.

[emdash]

California's way of doing it is really frustrating and very clearly meant to force older cars off the road and push people into buying new ones in an effort to help out dealers and car manufacturers.

My car is a bit older but its perfectly reliable. It doesn't require a monthly subscription, it doesn't track my location, it doesn't have a remote kill switch, and the title isn't owned by some bank. It would even blow fine on an emissions test. I still couldn't use it in California though because some of the original emissions equipment has failed and original replacements are impossible to find so alternative replacements have had to be used instead.

[Computer0]

As someone who lives in a state that got rid of emissions testing before I could drive it sounds like a horrifying thing to have to deal with.

[paulryanrogers]

Why is it horrifying? I've taken cars in for testing for years. It's pretty quick and painless.

[emdash]

My car wouldn't pass, not because it can't pass the emissions test, but because the original equipment that California requires by law failed years ago and replacements are not available. So I would be forced to get rid of my perfectly good car and buy an expensive new one not because it doesn't work, but because the law strictly requires original equipment.

[Computer0]

All my Vehicles are many decades older. I think it would impose a financial burden on many in my community who also have older vehicles (less financially well off) to get them up to 'spec'. The vast majority of cars are newer and would have no issue passing.

[traderj0e]

Was going to say, you only hear stories from the relatively few people who have issues, not the people who go in and out as usual.

[ryandrake]

I had to sell by beloved modded sports car when I moved to California. It blew clean as a whistle, but since the aftermarket parts were all from out of state (installed over the course of years), the state failed it as “tampered.” What a pile of shit. These guys are somehow driving around rolling coal on cyclists without getting grief, but I have to get rid of my car because it doesn’t have the right CA stamp on the intake system. CA’s system is terrible for home mechanics.

[traderj0e]

Sucks, but it's the cost of having different standards. Same thing happens trying to import random cars to the US.

[eightysixfour]

States, like Texas, are getting rid of this. Although they still collect the fee of course.

[robocat]

> Done right, it can be low burden and low cost

The rules mostly penalise the poor (and often unfairly).

You are severely underestimating how hard "done right" is.

I'm from New Zealand and the yearly car checkup is burdensome. About $75 and an hour wasted minimum to get car checked.

However the workshop profits come from fixing faults so their economic incentive is to find faults.

It costs you way more time if something needs fixing (parts delays, getting car and from workshop, etc.)

Our warrant of fitness regulations are ostensibly for safety (yours and others). However the jobsworth wonks have zero incentive to balance the risks versus the costs. The rules get stricter every year for goals that have no measurable outcome.

Many of the safety regulations are sensible, but many are just bullshit.

[solraph]

From memory (I haven't lived in NZ for a while now), the WoF check could be done at VTNZ stations, which explicitly did not do repairs to avoid this conflict of interest.

Alas, it looks like VTNZ was privatised and the exact outcome you would expect happened.

[robocat]

You imply that privatisation is the cause.

But really I think the government incentives are the root cause.

Fortunately I can still find workshops that care about doing a good job (more than they care about ripping off customers). But I feel bad for anyone who can't pick good services: which takes skill and costs time.

I never used VTNZ because I found them to be overly picky when I tried them. I thought VTNZ followed the rules too strictly and you didn't get any fair relaxation. I didn't know the history you have mentioned.

[traderj0e]

New Zealand sounds unreasonable. It's reasonable in like California. They don't mandate yearly checkups, just smog testing which is every 2 years for cars older than 8 years.

[simulator5g]

"This "web browser" is used as a glorified-"

Don't go down this road.

[gregoriol]

Maybe they should ban metal grinders as they allow people to steal things?

[whalesalad]

federal and state governments buy and operate diesel vehicles without emissions controls because of how bad they are in critical situations. rules for thee but not for me.

[traderj0e]

These drivers aren't in critical situations, and their mods aren't designed for that

[emdash]

If my car fails while I'm driving over the mountain in the winter and leaves me stranded outside of cell service in sub zero weather, that would be a critical situation.

If my car fails while I'm driving through the desert and leaves me stranded in 100+ degree heat in the summer, that would be a critical situation.

If my car fails while I'm driving on a busy part of I5, that could be a critical situation.

I get that the rolling coal mods or whatever aren't designed to improve reliability, but things like deleting EGR or modifying the control logic for the DEF system are and can prevent a vehicle from failing in a situation that could be life threatening. Again, the government already knows this which is why they order their vehicles with those exact modifications already done.

[whalesalad]

Honestly, how do you know? Regardless, it's completely unfair. The government knows emissions control tech takes one of the most reliable workhorse powerplants in the world and neuters it, weakens it, and makes it more susceptible to failure. A lot of folks delete their diesel trucks not to "roll coal" or own the libs, but because it makes their vehicles more reliable.

[traderj0e]

Modern trucks, even with emissions controls, are more powerful than anything older. Engines are more reliable if anything, though there are plenty of pesky non-engine electronics ruining the useful lifespans of modern cars.

If you're talking about black smoke out of the exhaust, no it doesn't help reliability. If you just mean tuning to optimize not for emissions, yeah it can help if you know exactly what you're doing or screw it up if you don't, either way you'll only find out later. Doesn't seem to matter because most professionals already make their living without messing with their trucks.

idk who downvoted you, that's not appropriate, so +1'd you to avoid comment death

[ryeights]

So what? It's anti-social behavior. What thought does the deleted diesel truck driver give to his fellow citizens, whose otherwise reliable respiratory systems are weakened and made more susceptible to failure by toxic fumes and particulates?

[whalesalad]

I'm realizing a lot of folks in this thread do not understand diesel emissions systems at all and why you might want to delete one.

[ryeights]

I understand and I don't care. Your personal interests as a diesel truck driver don't override others' interests in health and clean air

[traderj0e]

Maybe they don't, but I get it. Optimizing for lower emission doesn't mean highest reliability, or even necessarily highest fuel economy. Emissions parts can fail and be expensive to replace. That doesn't mean people should be allowed to delete emissions. Last time I had my cats fail, the cheapest option was to saw them off, I didn't do that.

[JCattheATM]

What are your thoughts on climate change?

[ryandrake]

Site full of hackers who would fight to the death over open source and their ability to run their computers the way they want to, but when it’s about car enthusiasts instead of computer enthusiasts, suddenly nobody cares.