[kentm]

IMO, The only reasonable answer if asked this in an interview is “I would not write code where I have to know the answer to this question”

These sorts of things are neat trivia to learn about things like sequence points but 99.9% of the time if it matters in your codebase you're writing something unmaintainable.

[tzs]

> IMO, The only reasonable answer if asked this in an interview is “I would not write code where I have to know the answer to this question”

That's half of a reasonable answer. The other half is "but I do know the answer so if I see it when reviewing or working on someone else's code I can flag it or rewrite it, and explain to them why it is bad".

[godelski]

  > The other half is "but I do know the answer

Except you don't!

If you claim to know the answer you've made a grave mistake and fooled yourself.

If you ran the code in a compiler and used that to conclude "this is the answer" rather than "this is an answer" then now is a great time to learn how easy it is to fool yourself. You just need you ask yourself what assumptions you made. I'll wager you assumed all compilers process this line in the same way.

Or just RTFA, or Susam's, as that's exactly what they are about. They explain why this is undefined behavior.

  | The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.
  - Feynman

[tzs]

> I'll wager you assumed all compilers process this line in the same way

You would lose that wager.

What I mean by "I do know the answer" is that I know that this is undefined behavior and why it is undefined behavior and that different compilers can give different results and also that even if I test the compiler I use to see what it does I can't count on that not changing any time the compiler gets updated.

[godelski]

Fair, but that was not clear to me that that's what you meant. It's clear that others interpreted it the way you intended too (since there are multiple replies saying exactly what you said) but I also don't think I'm the only one who misinterpreted. Sorry that I did.

[fyolnish]

Seems fitting in a thread about undefined behavior

[benj111]

I think you're misinterpreting "I know the answer". The GP is suggesting rewriting it, so the know the issue.

[1718627440]

> Except you don't!

Except you can do, because "The answer is that this isn't a valid C program." is a sentence you can know.

[godelski]

Syntactically, it is valid. Though yes, semantically it is invalid. Calling it "valid" is going to just continue the same problem because there's multiple ways to interpret valid here

[IshKebab]

No it isn't. You don't need to know the answer to know that it is bad code. The very fact that it isn't clear shows that.

[tialaramex]

Right, the feedback I'd expect in a code review interview is something like "This is unclear or wrong, write what you actually meant".

That's the feedback I would want, and it's the feedback I give to my colleagues in reviews. Actually I tend to be too verbose, so you might get a full paragraph explaining what the ISO document says and that you shouldn't assume it does whatever it is your compiler says.

My actual feelings for this specific case are that the language is defective, but if we're wedded to a defective language then the reviews need to call out such usage.

[godelski]

  > Actually I tend to be too verbose, so you might get a full paragraph explaining what the ISO document

I'm verbose too, but I love it when others are. Honestly, it's usually easy to triage (and I write to try to make it easy). I like verbosity because learning why means I not only won't make that mistake again but I won't make any similar mistakes again.

Verbosity isn't bad. Not everything needs to be a fucking tweet

[1718627440]

If you know is this code is bad, but don't know that it is UB, I thing you are rating code on feelings and cargo culting.

[atoav]

I mean the good answer is:

I am not sure this code could be interpreted the same by different programmers and compilers alike. So I would never write it.

[MaxBarraclough]

That isn't a strong answer, unless the question was about what you think of the code's style. The point is that it's more than just poor style, it's likely to constitute undefined behaviour. Saying different compilers could interpret the expression differently is not equivalent to saying it invokes undefined behaviour.

It's common for interview questions to explore unusual code, perhaps poor quality code, that hinges on edge cases of the language. A candidate with a strong understanding of the language would be expected to take the opportunity to demonstrate it.

[amelius]

You might still make a mistake, even if you think you know the answer. It's much better to instrument the code to figure it out, or write a short test program.

[bestouff]

It's Undefined Behavior. So you can instrument all you want, the answer will still be wrong. You'll capture what your particular compiler does under some particular conditions (opt flags, surrounding code, etc.) but that will not be representative of what can happen in the general case (hint : anything can happen with UB).

[thaumasiotes]

> It's Undefined Behavior.

Susam's post doesn't make this clear. The quotes from K&R say that the modifications to the variable may take place in any order, but they don't directly say that doing this is Undefined Behavior, which would make it permissible to do anything, including e.g. interpreting the increments as decrements.

The C99 standard is quoted saying this:

>> Between the previous and next sequence point an object shall have its stored value modified at most once by the evaluation of an expression.

It's possible that something else in the standard defines noncompliance with this clause as Undefined Behavior. But that's not the most intuitive interpretation; what this seems to say, to me, is that the line of code `a = a++ + ++a` should fail to compile, because it's not in compliance with a requirement of the language. Compilers that produce any result at all are suffering from a bug.

(It seems more likely that the actual intent is to specify that, given the line of code `b = a++ + ++a`, with a initially equal to 5, the compiler is required to ensure that the value stored at the address of a is never equal to 6 - that it begins at 5, and at some indefinite point it becomes 7, but that there is no intermediate stage between them. But I find the 'compiler failure on attempt to put multiple modifications between two sequence points' interpretation preferable.)

[vilhelm_s]

The "shall" in the standard means it's undefined behavior. This is explained in the "Conformance" section,

> 2. If a ‘‘shall’’ or ‘‘shall not’’requirement that appears outside of a constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined. Undefined behavior is otherwise indicated in this International Standard by the words ‘‘undefined behavior’’ or by the omission of any explicit definition of behavior. There is no difference in emphasis among these three; they all describe ‘‘behavior that is undefined’’.

Compilers will not refuse to compile the code, indeed the blog post we are all commenting on reports the results from a bunch of different compilers. Historically the reason the C standard specified a lot of undefined behavior is that the actually existing C compilers at the time compiled the code but disagreed about the output.

[thaumasiotes]

> Compilers will not refuse to compile the code, indeed the blog post we are all commenting on reports the results from a bunch of different compilers.

Yes, I see that. I just said they should refuse.

[Dylan16807]

Compilers are not able to prevent you from violating must/shall in the general case. So they're not held to that bar. Unless the standard says not to compile it, it's not a compiler bug.

Also, imagine a situation where the line of code actually lists three different variables, but all three of them are passed in by address. It quickly becomes impossible for the compiler to know you violated the spec by reusing the same variable. And even optimizations that make sense here could corrupt the value pretty badly and possibly lead to worse errors.

[thaumasiotes]

> Also, imagine a situation where the line of code actually lists three different variables, but all three of them are passed in by address. It quickly becomes impossible for the compiler to know you violated the spec by reusing the same variable.

OK. What is the value of a spec to which compliance is impossible?

[susam]

I searched K&R to see if there is any language that implies a += a++ + a++ to be undefined. I couldn't find anything. I found the following excerpt which is closest to what I claim, in spirit. But still, it does not explicitly spell out that an object must not be modified more than once between sequence points. From § A.7 Expressions:

> The precedence and associativity of operators is fully specified, but the order of evaluation of expressions is, with certain exceptions, undefined, even if the subexpressions involve side effects. That is, unless the definition of the operator guarantees that its operands are evaluated in a particular order, the implementation is free to evaluate operands in any order, or even to interleave their evaluation. However, each operator combines the values produced by its operands in a way compatible with the parsing of the expression in which it appears. This rule revokes the previous freedom to reorder expressions with operators that are mathematically commutative and associative, but can fail to be computationally associative. The change affects only floating-point computations near the limits of their accuracy, and situations where overflow is possible.

So I think, the text in K&R serves as warning against writing such code, at best. The C99 draft has more relevant language. From § 4. Conformance:

> If a "shall" or "shall not" requirement that appears outside of a constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined. Undefined behavior is otherwise indicated in this International Standard by the words "undefined behavior" or by the omission of any explicit definition of behavior. There is no difference in emphasis among these three; they all describe "behavior that is undefined".

This along with the § 6.5 excerpt already mentioned in my post implies a += a++ + a++ to be undefined. When I get some more time later, I'll make an update to my post to include the § 4. Conformance language too for completeness.

Thank you for the nice comment!

[tengwar2]

Not nasal demons in this case (https://groups.google.com/g/comp.std.c/c/ycpVKxTZkgw/m/S2hHd...): thaumasiotes shows that we can expect a numeric answer.

[_kst_]

I don't see the name "thaumasiotes" at that link, nor do I see anything relevant to the code in the title.

The behavior of "int a = 5; a = a++ + ++a;" is undefined. There is no guarantee of a numeric result, because there is no guarantee of anything.

[susam]

I believe they were referring to thaumasiotes's thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48141294

I think the objection thaumasiotes has raised there is valid and I have made an attempt to answer it as well in the same thread.

[HarHarVeryFunny]

It's only the order of evaluation that is undefined.

[amelius]

It doesn't matter if the answer is wrong. You run the test program and then replace the code by the answer. This basically weeds out the UB.

[yongjik]

But since it is a UB, there's no guarantee that your test program produces the same result as the same code running on production, even if you have the same compiler.

[amelius]

That's very unlikely, and in the worst case you've reduced a difficult bug into an easier to understand bug.

[1718627440]

That's a valid approach, if you only use high-level language to generate assembly faster, and the assembly is your source of truth.

[zeroq]

On one hand I've been using almost the exact statement 25 years ago in my Flash (ecmascript) tutorials to narrow down the point of operator precedence.

I still believe it's a good piece on your powerpoint if you want to teach. It's easy to fall, easy to grasp, and easy to unroll all the rules - that is, if the rules are actually set in stone.

On the other hand I've been through couple FAANG interviews, and twice I was presented with something similar and after I glanced at it for a half a minute the interviewer quickly proceed to "a ha!, you don't know! the interview is over , but I'm happy to tell you the right answer".

That part is not cool.

[adrian_b]

The answers to some questions must be known in order to be able to write a correct program.

In the vast majority of the programming languages, the order of evaluation for the actual parameters passed to a function is undefined. In the few programming languages where the order of evaluation is defined, that is actually a mistake in the design of that programming language.

This is something about which any programmer must be well aware, because when composing function invocations it is very easy to write a function invocation where the result would depend on the order of evaluation of the expressions passed as actual parameters. The arithmetic operators are also function invocations, so that applies to them too.

[chii]

> when composing function invocations it is very easy to write a function invocation where the result would depend on the order of evaluation of the expressions passed as actual parameters

this simply means your functions aren't pure functions, and is doing side effects. If you rewrite those functions to not have side effects (including ones being used to generate the parameters), there would be zero issues of such nature.