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by cmrdporcupine 28 days ago
I dunno man. I grew up in Edmonton area and didn't much care about whatever in central Canada, and only had a vague sense of it despite having done a trip across Canada with the family when I was 8. Of course "western alienation" talk was all around from right wing sorts but my family paid no attention to it anyways.

Then I moved to Toronto in 1996 in the .com boom. I had spent plenty of time in Vancouver but living in Toronto was night and day in terms of vibrancy, culture, activity, economy. Toronto was a real living city and even Vancouver didn't compare. TLDR there's a reason why the country is in part Toronto centric. There's just a lot going on there. A lot of people, a lot of money, and a lot of culture. In the 90s especially it really was "downtown Canada." That would have been even more so in the period this article is talking about. It has nothing to do with Toronto people thinking they're superior, it has to do with the fact that this is the 3rd or 4th (depending how you count it) largest city in North America and nothing else in Canada even comes close.

I have lived both sides and most of my family is still in Alberta. The persecution complex out there is 100% bullshit. Nobody in reality is treating Alberta badly. It actually gets a remarkably good deal in confederation -- selling oil and gas to the rest of the country. Hydrocarbons aren't the centre of existence. Even after all these years of neglect and downgrading the manufacturing economies of central Canada are still a massive part of the GDP of the country, and the industrial policies that apply for them are not necessarily the same as for energy or forestry exports and that needs to be recognized.

Not to mention that this part of the world is where the bulk of the population still is. Yet I hear people in Alberta routinely talk about how they're somehow holding the whole country up. It's not factually correct. Not even close, unless you play wilful distortion of how equalization works.

Also, we are some of the the biggest customers of Alberta, Line 9 runs right behind my farm. 90% of the oil used here in Ontario is purchased via that line from Alberta, pumped from Edmonton. I also fail to see recognition of this from many pundits in Alberta. Even Harper was spreading misinformation about "Saudi oil tankers coming up the St Lawrence" -- that's just bullshit. The only part of our country that uses middle eastern imports is Atlantic Canada, for obvious reasons.

I don't see it as colonial at all. I think certain people got very aggressive when necessary moves were made around climate regulation. As a person who lived half their live in Alberta, and half their life here... I just think those people are wrong. a) It's wrong for Alberta to be so dependent on hydrocarbons and it needs to diversify b) Climate change is real and Alberta's exports play a significant role in that.

There is a lot of ... motivated ... disinformation spread by various actors in Alberta. People should be skeptical.

2 comments

Respectfully, as an Albertan who still lives in Alberta, and who wants to remain a part of Canada I don't think that the persecution complex is 100% bullshit, and dismissals of it as such by eastern Canada only serve to reinforce it.

Re: equalization, of course the massive economy of Ontario makes a big part of GDP, but the point of Alberta's importance is that its economy allows it to make an outsized impact compared to its population. This surplus GDP/capita makes a huge difference in contributions to the equalization program wherein a province with 1/4 the population of Ontario can make the same size of contribution to the program. If you remove Alberta from the pool it becomes much much harder to retain the same size of payments to other provinces on the back of Ontario among others.

Second, Alberta has been one of the most under-represented province in the federal government, and that trend has gone on for decades. Lured by Alberta's economy people keep moving here and our ridings keep getting more and more people while we retain the same number of seats. This has been slowly changing as the government is basically forced to allocate more seats to Alberta and now between Ontario and BC, Alberta is no longer the most disadvantaged, but it still isn't a great situation.

Finally, there's all the one off issues that add up over time. As an example in the mid 2010s oil was in the gutters and Alberta was facing real economic issues. In 2015, there were roughly 35,000 job losses, and in 2016 there were another 25,000 direct job losses in the oil and gas sector. In 2018 when GM announced they were going to close their oshawa plant and put 3000 people out of work the federal government held an emergency midnight meeting to discuss how to help the workers. Those types of optics don't go unnoticed, that Alberta could lose roughly 100k jobs over 2014-2017 and that 3k jobs in Ontario gets a midnight cabinet meeting. Alberta still paid into equalization as a "have" province during that time, despite huge deficits as the provincial government tried to backstop revenue losses.

All of which is to say that the separation crowd is a bunch of bad actors and the flames of western alienation are certainly being fanned by people with ill intentions, but the core of that alienation stems from a real place and from real actions both current and historical, and glibly dismissing it is just not something I can agree with.

> Alberta has been one of the most under-represented province in the federal government

Each time Albertans (I'm a 4th generation of that group) complain about lack of representation within federalism, I remind them of the many golden opportunities that came and went with their popularly elected and re-elected federal parties in power for long stretches of time, with Harper even representing an Alberta riding, yet here we are with complaints that rehash the same old, same old stuff. Nothing about federalism is ever good enough for them even after all those years of pro-AB feds in power.

You're misunderstand my point here. Alberta, until the most recent seat redistribution, had the largest federal ridings by population. Now they're only the 3rd largest. That means that the average Albertan's vote was worth far less than the average Quebecer's, and faaaar less than the average maritimer's vote. It gives disproportionate power above and beyond just representation due to population. Its not about which party they vote or don't vote for, although we could dig into that too, as its not nearly as cut and dried at the reductionist take would make it seem.
If I remember correctly, the guidance from the Supreme Court on riding sizes is plus/minus 15% difference from average, with special cases of low population density over large geographic areas allowing as much as plus/minus 40% from average.

Electoral boundaries commissions in Canada have been obligated to take input from all who submit complaints about riding sizes. That's different than those commissions being able to actually achieve something asymptotic to ''parity'', of course, but the net effect is that all those golden opportunities in long term AB-friendly power were missed, as I say.

Confederation isn't a business transaction where everything needs to zero out every year.

Alberta's strong financial position today is thanks to all the work the rest of the country (private or public) put into building the infrastructure and economy - prospecting, railways, roads, military bases, etc.

Albertans may pay more taxes to the federal government than they get back in services but thanks to oil they probably have a positive trade balance with the rest of the country.

There is also zero guarantee that in 50 years Alberta won't be in a worse revenue situation than its neighbours and needing equalization. In fact it's likely.

Not just because there's the off chance that human civilization decides burning hydrocarbons is a really bad idea. But because Alberta is profoundly vulnerable to drought and water shortage due to deglaciation as a result of climate change.

I mean one of the opening paragraphs of that article is as follows:

"This is not because Alberta’s grievances are illegitimate. They are not. Albertans have real and long-standing concerns about energy policy, federal–provincial relations, and economic fairness within Confederation. Those concerns deserve to be debated openly and democratically by Canadians, among themselves, on their own terms. The danger is who has joined the debate and why."

This is my point. The separation stuff is clearly completely illegitimate, but the underlying causes of the grievances, several of which I've pointed out in my post above, are entirely real and legitimate, and just blowing it off as "meh, its just russian disinformation" etc, etc, is just a really lame way of not dealing with the issues at hand.

Appreciate the response and respectful tone, but almost none of this conversation makes sense to me because it's based on a strange assumption that Albertans should and must identify their own interests directly with the interests of the oil industry.

I do see that people often do that. I also think it's kind of a messed up perspective.

It's a destructive industry doing just as much harm (actually more, see forest fires, etc) to Albertans as it is doing to the rest of the world. Also as an Albertan who grew up watching his father cycle in and out of brutal unemployment on the cadence of erratic oil prices -- it's kind of a shitty patron to have, frankly.

There are other industries in Alberta. And new ones developing. But I just watched Smith's government sabotage renewables, so...

You're also seemingly making the giant assumption that people in Ontario somehow do the same around car manufacturers or something, or that people in "eastern Canada" have this monolithic view generally about either the west or whatever.

Ontario is actually often a giant sea of blue seats with red and orange in urban centres. It's actually a strong core of conservative support, historically.

But when conservatives take out of mainstream positions on cultural issues -- such as, I dunno, blockading the streets of the capital city, or effectively denying climate change -- they suffer at the ballot boxes even from people who often vote conservative.

I hated Harper, but he was smart enough to avoid this whenever possible. Can't say the same about the latest batch.

Anyways, I'm out there often. And my kid is going to do her BFA at the U of A (knock on wood, acceptances are this month), so I'll likely end up buying a house there long term and our family often talks about moving back there...

(BTW when Harper was in power we had the same blatant regionalism happening. I'd go out to visit family and find huge "stimulus" projects being built all over the province [e.g. Henday north construction, etc] while projects in Ontario failed to get funding ... unless the riding was a conservative one [see Vaughan subway extension, blatant vote buying]. The Canadian dollar sky rocketed to above the USD which severely harmed central Canadian manufacturing in ways it still hasn't recovered from. Should we have talked about central-Canada-alienation at that point?)

I acknowledge your perspective, fair enough, but it seems focused on the present. Western alienation goes far, far back, predating Confederation. The golden age of the Atlantic provinces goes back to a period hundreds of years ago, too. I'm just pointing out from a historical view that the cultural effect of so much power and influence being centred in Toronto and Montreal had, and continues to have, a large influence on Canadians, going back many, many generations. Some grind axes, others shrug, some stand up and shout "Excuse me, we've been here all along too, what about us?" I remain positive and upbeat that we'll sort it all out together.
I think what you're pointing at is potentially true but also that it's somewhat easily exploited by ideologically and money driven people for some rather ... what I would consider nefarious ends.

When I first moved here to Ontario I was blown away by how many people my own age didn't even know what/where Edmonton (a city of a million people, and the capital of the province) was, their only conception of Alberta was Calgary at most.

At the same time, I feel a strong sense of unease in the other direction when I'm out visiting family. There, again, there seems to be some confusion about what the country actually is.

I really love this country, having lived on two ends of it and driven across it many times. I've moved back and forth twice via Grayhound, 50+ hours slogging it across northern Ontario and the prairies stopping at every weird little town.

It's really something, what we've built here. I wish more people saw more of it.

Cold War RCAF brat here. Wherever Dad was transferred, that's where we went. It was a joy, but I've found over the years that folks sometimes get a bit cranky when I cannot pinpoint which part of Canada I'm from... for me, it has always been ''everywhere''.
> I remain positive and upbeat that we'll sort it all out together.

Quite possibly the most Canadian comment I’ve ever seen. There’s a reason we (Americans) love you guys!