[danaris]

"Zero tolerance" policies like that are much more prone to the kind of excessive leniency in application that's described, precisely because the penalty for being found to have cheated is so very high.

In those cases, the academic integrity committee is much more likely to demand a very high standard of proof of cheating, and it can ironically result in more people getting away with it again and again, where, in a system with (say) a "three strikes" policy, they might be more likely to be expelled, because the committee would not hesitate to give them their first and second strikes—and after that, they're clearly a repeat offender.

[hammock]

You are equating “leniency” and “standard of proof” which goes against my every sense of justice.

You either did it or you didn’t. There is no small crime, they are all the same. That is honor- you have it or you don’t.

There is no “you were accused, but it’s minor so we’ll have to be more sure than usual.”

That would be as ridiculous as saying “you were accused, and it’s major, so if there’s any suspicion at all, you’re gone.”

I know that happens in practice sometimes (like to the lacrosse players at Duke, or to Phi Psi at Virginia), but it’s not just. And it’s not representative of a functional honor system.

[danaris]

You're looking at it in much too black-and-white a manner.

First of all, there's a difference between cheating on the big final exam that determines 40% of your course grade, and cheating on a quiz in week 3. A zero-tolerance policy has to make a decision: does the latter count as cheating? Is that really worth expelling a student over? A more nuanced policy can give that student a more nuanced punishment that may deter them from escalating their cheating—essentially, "scare them straight".

Second of all, there are absolutely degrees of cheating. For one, there's simple volume: did you cheat on one question, or all of them? For another, there's gray areas like "it was an open-book test, but I had also scribbled down some extra notes in the book" or "yes, I had my phone out in the test, but genuinely I was just responding to my parent/significant other/best friend who was having a meltdown". Or even "I had my phone in my bag, which I wasn't supposed to, but I never looked at it during the test; I just forgot to hand it in when I entered".

Your brand of "justice" would see many people who could absolutely be persuaded or shamed into good behavior, as well as actual innocents, lose the chance to ever get a decent education, and thus a decent job. (Particularly given the way the economics of it are going today—if you get expelled, those student loans don't go away, so how are you ever going to afford another university?)

[hammock]

> Is that really worth expelling a student over?

What do you mean by this. What is the cost of one university expelling a liar? There is only benefit.

I am talking about a school like Princeton here. Not a for-profit degree mill.

The school with only honorable students is the most valuable school, all else being equal. All your students will be practically guaranteed jobs.

How much cheating is acceptable, from your wife? Do you have a sliding scale of punishment? I’d be curious to learn from you. Penalty for kissing another man. Penalty for touching another man. Etc.

[danaris]

> What is the cost of one university expelling a liar?

What is the cost to the student?

And you seem to have immediately glossed over the part where not all of these students are, in fact, lying, or cheating.

> The school with only honorable students is the most valuable school, all else being equal. All your students will be practically guaranteed jobs.

Where on earth do you get that idea?

No one in the corporate world really cares if you cheated on your exams. Plenty of them would brag about doing the same. They care about the piece of paper, and not much else, from the schooling itself. (They do care about what experience you have. In fact, they'd love it if, as 22-year-old college graduate, you have 15 years of experience!)

> How much cheating is acceptable, from your wife?

I don't feel like going too much into my personal life with someone like you, but oh boy, buddy, did you pick the wrong person to try that "gotcha" on X-D

[hammock]

> What is the cost to the student?

Just about everything. That is honor and dishonor. It’s a fall from polite society. It’s not a reprimand.