[JuniperMesos]

> Basically skeptical of common forms in modernity, that is very clearly the intention. However, I have also seen that in extreme far-right communities this film represents how Jewish people control the world... somehow I don't think that is what Carpenter was going for.

Say what you will about claiming that the Jews secretly control the world like the aliens in the 1988 John Carpenter movie They Live, the people making this claim are certainly not obeying, conforming, or refraining from questioning authority.

[cwillu]

They absolutely conform; by what mechanism do you think they all happened to pick the same bundle of labels and beliefs?

[account42]

Of course, choosing to stand up to the man together with those like minded makes you the real conformist. A deep philosophical conundrum for the prepubescent.

[wat10000]

Life got easier once I realized that being contrarian meant you were just as much controlled by other people as being conformist.

[ClikeX]

I remember a conspiracy nut telling me "the truth", saying not to believe what the media told me, and do my own research. And then proceeded to point me to a few conspiracy influencers that were telling him what to think. It was very ironic.

[throw0101c]

> They absolutely conform; by what mechanism do you think they all happened to pick the same bundle of labels and beliefs?

Are you conforming/obeying when you believe the Earth is round? That the sky is blue? Perhaps a bunch of people picking "the same bundle of labels and beliefs" is… simply them recognizing/accepting reality?

[pdonis]

Depends on why you believe those things.

If you believe the Earth is round because someone you view as an authority told you, and you never asked for any reasons or evidence, then yes, you're conforming/obeying.

If you believe the Earth is round because you understand the extremely strong evidence we have for that, then no, you're not conforming/obeying.

> Perhaps a bunch of people picking "the same bundle of labels and beliefs" is… simply them recognizing/accepting reality?

For something like "the sky is blue", sure--we can confirm it by our own observations and us all using the same word to describe the color we see the sky as being.

For something like "the Earth is round", it's more complicated, because it's not obvious just from observation, at least not the kind of observation that ordinary people today are going to be making in their daily lives. But if, for example, you have enough experience on oceangoing ships, you're likely to have made observations that were part of what convinced certain ancient Greeks that the Earth was round. Or if you've observed enough lunar eclipses to see how the shape of the Earth's shadow appears on the Moon. Or if you've observed the Sun's angle above the horizon in the sky at enough different latitudes on the summer or winter solstice. But how many people have made those observations? Or understand what they tell us about the shape of the Earth?

And of course people, even very large numbers of people, can also pick "the same bundle of labels and beliefs" about things that aren't reality. So no, you can't rely on that as an indicator.

[the_af]

I don't think it's the same.

I like to think of these supremacist/racist conspiracy theories as another form of control: in many cases these people are right to be upset, since they see things in the world that are truly unfair, but their anger gets redirected to bizarre beliefs and racism. So it's a way of controlling and channeling their anger to a place where real change becomes impossible, just anger and venting and weird beliefs in secret Jewish/Muslim/Woke/Illuminati cabals running the world.

Real change is hard, and involves compromise and dealing with people with different ideas and goals. Anger against immigrants, or some ethnic or religious group, is easier.

[JuniperMesos]

Immigrants are very often people from different ethnic and religious groups than you, who you have to compromise and deal with because they are present in large numbers in your poltical jurisdiction in a way they were not previously. Being angry at them for creating the conditions under which you have to compromise with them is normal.

[the_af]

It's normal, but misguided to direct your anger at them. It's so normal it's the usual path the frustration is channeled, often with conspiracy theories such as "the replacement" etc.

Compromising and dealing with people is what life's all about, but it's easier to hate than to build consensus and harmony.

And of course, some people exploit these misguided tendencies because they want people not to focus on systemic inequalities that are the root of their problems, and instead blame everything on some other group of people that's different from them. Or because fanning the flames works as a ladder for them.

[feoren]

> Are you conforming/obeying when you believe the Earth is round? That the sky is blue?

No, I am incorporating multiple different lines of evidence from multiple sources, including my eyes, into a framework of knowledge that I am constantly challenging and questioning, and "the Earth is round" and "the sky is blue" have survived those challenges as good first approximations to the truth. Whereas "Jews control the world" has extremely flimsy evidence, strong counter-evidence, doesn't fit with my understanding of the world, and can be traced as a myth/meme to known bad-faith actors. Which, by the way, is all also true for "vaccines cause autism" and "the earth is flat".

Not everything is the same.

[autoexec]

> the people making this claim are certainly not obeying, conforming, or refraining from questioning authority.

In my experience racists tend to just latch on to different authorities to blindly follow and obedience and conformity are even more strongly enforced. I've had long discussions with racists over the "rebel" identity they see in the confederate flag who shortly after demonstrated incredible amounts of boot-licking when it came to police. Most of the racists I've meet were very dedicated to hierarchies, a select set of social norms, old-fashioned gender roles, etc. and conformance was absolutely seen as mandatory.

[cwillu]

But it's not The Federal Authorities™, so they don't think it counts as conformity.

[kridsdale1]

Until it’s ICE boots to be licked.

[pjc50]

"Say what you want about the tenets of national socialism, at least it's an ethos" -- The Big Lebowski, another influential film to many people.

[subroutine]

And let's also not forget that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, within the city isn't legal either.

[JuniperMesos]

I like The Big Lebowski, it has some fun lines, but John Goodman's Walter Sobchak doesn't have a monopoly on the English phrase "Say what you will about X".

And indeed apparently the line was in fact "say what you want about the tenets of national socialism", not "say what you will about the tenets of national socialism" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w).

[pjc50]

The second half of the line was also relevant, since the claim of Jews controlling the world was specifically a Nazi one.

[ZeroGravitas]

That actually traces back further to, appositley, the White Russians and their Protocols of Zion to smear democracy as a Jewish plot.

From there it spread to Henry Ford, Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler amongst others.

[kridsdale1]

Is that why Lebowski drinks White Russians exclusively?