[avazhi]

> What stops you from running the best open weighted LLMs currently available on consumer grade hardware for the rest of time?

Uh… the hardware requirements? And stop acting like some dog shit 8B model the average Joe can run on a laptop is even close to being comparable to what Claude or even Codex can currently do.

I have pretty good hardware and I’ve tinkered with the best sub-150B models you can use and they are awful compared to Anthropic/OAI/Grok.

[apsurd]

What if the harness and loops get sufficiently better though? CC is using haiku for code-base gripping and such, you don't see a local commodity model being "good enough" for the 80% case when matched with better harnesses and tool calls?

honest question, i'm very interested in this, but too casual as of now to know any better.

[avazhi]

I think the main issue is, as the other guy also alluded to, the parameter discrepancy. I know Mixture of Experts models are popular specifically becaue they save a lot of space and memory, but if your initial answer space is two orders of magnitude smaller on a local machine compared to the frontier cloud models, that knowledge gap just gets wider as the conversation continues, and the initial answer isn't even going to be as good to begin with. I don't know how to solve that parameter gap without hardware - there's only so much optimisation you can do, but at the end of the day parameterised knowledge takes up some minimum amount of bits that you can't excise without the actual knowledge and intelligence suffering.

[byzantinegene]

vast majority of average users don't use llms for coding, and for those purposes, local llms with low param count are a far cry from SOTA models.

[apublicfrog]

> And stop acting like some dog shit 8B model the average Joe can run on a laptop is even close to being comparable to what Claude or even Codex can currently do.

I'm not, you've actually illustrated my point. LLMs in 2022 were very impressive. By 2024 the general public was finding them an acceptable replacement for many research driven tasks and massive shortcuts for other tasks (coding, image work, document preperation, etc).

Those models are absolutely runnable on consumer hardware now, and we were extremely happy with the results. It's no different to how we used to think CRTs were amazing or early smartphones, but going back now they seem awful.

We're long past "danger". If what we have is the best we'll ever have open source, we're already in an excellent position.

[avazhi]

> LLMs in 2022 were very impressive.

No they weren't. They were a gimmick - it is only in the past 6 or so months that frontier models have started to do stuff beyond mere gimmicks when it comes to coding, and you could make the argument that Mythos has been the first 'Holy shit' moment that we've had that has stepped us beyond 'Yeah that's really neat but...'

> Those models are absolutely runnable on consumer hardware now,

A sub 50B model is awful and can't even write proper English sentences half the time, to say nothing of how bad its world knowledge is. Try the 32B Gemma 4 local model for a week and then go back to Claude and then get back to me.

> We're long past "danger". If what we have is the best we'll ever have open source, we're already in an excellent position.

Not sure what to tell you other than that you and I have very different standards. What we have locally right now is barely more than a glorified autocomplete, and it feels worse than using ChatGPT 2 years ago because the context window is less and it doesn't have good webhooks on consumer setups. Another thing I'd say is that you clearly have no clue what 'consumer hardware' means, or what consumers that can even get this stuff running locally would have to do to get it to even rival the frontier models in terms of their usability (most consumers are't going to just boot into Ubuntu and run this thing from a command line) flow, to say nothing of the hardware requirements. I'd love to never use Claude or Gemini or ChatGPT again for both privacy and money reasons, but the quality of outputs and depth of thinking and writing ability between even the very best local models you can run right now is many orders of magnitude less than what you get using distributed frontier models, and those 'very best' local models require a top of the line machine that 99.9999% of consumers don't have and would never consider buying. The cloud models all have like a trillion(!) parameters now. It isn't even close.

I sure hope the local side of things massively improves over the next 2-3 years, but based on how this has gone my guess is that in 3 years you'll be lucky, if you have very top of the line hardware, to get benchmark performance that we had 6 months ago with the frontier models. The distributed hardware/memory gap is just too big.

[apublicfrog]

> No they weren't. They were a gimmick - it is only in the past 6 or so months that frontier models have started to do stuff beyond mere gimmicks when it comes to coding

This is simply untrue. Using agentic orchestration I was writing production code daily 3 years ago. Hallucinations happened sometimes and context window was smaller (so you had to do some funky workarounds to deal with larger codebases), but it was workable. There have been a lot of marked improvements from a code perspective then - a lot model related yes, but also a lot in the ease of use, interfaces, etc.

> Another thing I'd say is that you clearly have no clue what 'consumer hardware' means, or what consumers that can even get this stuff running locally would have to do to get it to even rival the frontier models in terms of their usability (most consumers are't going to just boot into Ubuntu and run this thing from a command line) flow, to say nothing of the hardware requirements.

You've moved the goalposts. My point was that the "danger" of no new open models being released isn't that high as the existing ones are already impressive. Their ease of use or daily driving isn't relevant to that. If there were a need, someone could wrap a clean interface and support around it, or run it as their own cloud solution.

You seem to be arguing something adjacent to my point, which is fine I guess but I have little to say. Also multiple of your comments have come across quite aggressive and rude. Just food for thought if you want to work on that or not.