[JuniperMesos]

You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.

[muwtyhg]

> You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.

Are you going to expand on this at all? What is the value in Scouts being male-only?

[Henchman21]

Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. LOADS and LOADS of material available to young girls to accomplish this goal. Lots of funding for them too, to become women. Boys? Boys are _disposable_ and get _no investment_. I'll admit this is my personal perspective. I would be happy to be wrong about this but I just don't see it where I am in the Midwest.

So I think the value comes from having a male-only space where boys can learn to be men. This is especially true of young men in the throes of puberty where young women are such a huge distraction they cannot even _think straight_. I know this because I got to experience this _first hand_ and it took me many many MANY more years than it would have to integrate my feelings for women into my being or psyche or whatever the word is.

For the record I am neither Mormon, nor religious. In fact I wildly far to the left by most assessments. Admittedly I don't fit neatly into other people's labels.

What is the value in all programs being mixed gender?

[jaybrendansmith]

The way the program is currently set up, the boy and girl troops are separated completely. There's been no negatives of including girls, only positives that I have seen, and I've been involved for almost 20 years. It's amazing what people construct in their own heads without actually investigating to see the reality.

[vintermann]

> Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women.

Do they? That suggests not only that there's one right way to be a man/woman, and that you'll need to learn it from your peers and not just your parents.

I do think there's a point to gender-segregated spaces for kids, but that is because the social dynamics are different. There are some ways a boy can relax when there's only other boys around, and same for girls, and that's probably good for mental health. But you're still a man/woman even if you didn't get that chance and went through your whole childhood worrying what the opposite sex thought of you.

[em-bee]

What is the value in all programs being mixed gender?

to learn that both genders are normal people and have some common and some diverse interest and capacities. to learn to respect each other and to collaborate. to avoid turning the other gender into a mysterious unknown.

there is room for gender segregated spaces. but it doesn't have to be at the organization level. you could have boys only and girls only patrols.

i also disagree that men need to be by themselves in order to learn to be men. the most important quality of a man is to be able to treat women with respect. and see them as their equal, not as something lesser. that can only happen in mixed spaces.

gender specific spaces are good for dealing with certain experiences, such as puberty, but beyond that y experience is that male only spaces are a breeding ground for toxic masculinity.

i also reject the idea that boys can't think straight when the see a woman. that only happens when those boys don't have enough contact with women and are not used to them and if they had bad role models (so blame their parents). if that was a serious issue all schools would be gender segregated everywhere. the whole idea that boys can't control themselves is insulting. it's perpetuated by an archaic view of gender differences. and in fact telling boys that they don't have themselves under control is only making them feel more helpless than they really are.

[vintermann]

Yes, organizationally there's of course no reason scout groups can't be mixed. But I don't think that's why the Mormons left, was it? It was mixed troops as well, right?

Children are exposed to plenty of gender-mixed spaces, from school to most families in the first place, and no one is suggesting doing away with that.

I don't agree that men "can't think straight" when women are around (or vice versa) but of course as a teen or even as an adult, you need to consider how the opposite sex sees you, what "signals" you send, or you will almost certainly be unhappy for it. When we call it "the male gaze" I think you see why it might be nice to have a break from it, but women judge men's masculine qualities/conformance too.

I think it's more insulting to suggest men can't be trusted to be left alone with each other or they'll become toxic.

[em-bee]

Children are exposed to plenty of gender-mixed spaces

yes and no. scouting is a unique activity. very different from school and other spaces. the things you learn in scouting are not what you learn in school, and therefore it matters that kids experience the other gender in the scouting context too. boys need to see that girls have the same scouting skills. just like it matters that girls can take a car mechanic class in high school, and boys can take a class on homemaking and learn sowing and other things generally seen as girl activities. just being together in school is not enough if the activities are not also shared. scouting can make a big difference here because it offers a broad range of activities that both genders can participate in.

as a teen or even as an adult, you need to consider how the opposite sex sees you, what "signals" you send, or you will almost certainly be unhappy for it

disagree. this is a cultural problem that we need to get rid of. way to much focus is put on how we are seen by others. i'd want to claim that this is a distinct american problem, but it happens elsewhere too, except in most other places it is not normalized. we teach children to ignore it and not give in to the idea that they should pay attention to what the other gender thinks of them.

I think it's more insulting to suggest men can't be trusted to be left alone with each other or they'll become toxic.

fair, that was a bit exaggerated. but it's not far from the truth. that men change their behavior when women are present is documented. it is a known workplace issue. it's a risk in boys groups in that individual boys that learn this behavior from elsewhere (from home for example) tend to be dominating (because it is a dominating behavior) and thus strongly influence the behavior of the group as a whole if not put in check.