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by Scaled 33 days ago
Parental controls on device are a better solution that work today and don't carry a risk of data breach.
4 comments

Parental controls are intentionally gimped. They do the bare minimum while providing more than enough wiggle room for a tech savvy teenager. To implement a robust parental control scheme you need network level filtration which isn't something the average parent will know anything about.
I disagree with that, because the teenager should be the parent's responsibility, regardless of how smart or savvy they are. Parents should be talking to their children, communicating what their and society's expectations are. If the parents are attempting to exert technical control over their children, by home router for example, there should be websites or computer shops they can go to. If the parents don't care or are not smart enough to keep up with their teenager, then no type of state mandated gimmick will either.

Teenagers, at that level of intelligence or are that determined, will find ways to circumvent whatever control mechanisms a parent or school is attempting to use. At some point, it is a matter of the teenager respecting their parents and rules. Same for if you told a teenager do not drink and drive. You can setup all kinds of technical barriers to block drunk teenagers from driving, but if they are that "smart", those committed to bad behavior or law breaking will find ways.

But again: if all the kids are on social media, is it enough for "good parent" to tell their kid that they should not go there?

From what I remember from being a kid myself, it definitely is not.

They would be a solution if almost all parents used them, but parents don't want to socially isolate their kids since a lot of "social" activity is now on social media. It's kind of a prisoner's dilemma.

There's not necessarily wrong. Despite the vapid and damaging nature of most popular online media, isolating a child from it might have even worse social consequences when their real-life peer groups discover that they're not on social media or that their parents have neutered their phone. Some kids would turn out fine after that. Others would be socially destroyed for life (maybe with the right therapy they could become well-adjusted, but high quality therapy is rare).

> They would be a solution if almost all parents used them

No, they are a solution for parents who want to use them, and that's all they should be. Their existence demonstrates that it's possible to handle this without regulation, other than the desire of some people to inflict their preferences onto other people's kids.

You haven't tried to use parental controls much have you? They are all terrible. They are insanely difficult to get set up properly and even when you do there are a lot of tradeoffs that come with it.
> even when you do there are a lot of tradeoffs that come with it

Absolutely, but those are nothing compared to the tradeoffs of putting attestation or identity verification (sometimes incorrectly described as "age" verification) on numerous sites and inflicting them on everyone.

> but those are nothing compared to the tradeoffs

And my whole point is that it's possible to do age verification in a privacy-preserving manner, and before complaining about the tradeoffs, you should get informed about what they are.

I'm well aware of those possibilities. The two biggest problems with them are that 1) they still apply to everyone, rather than only to those who opt into them and 2) governments and companies are in practice going to push for the versions that identify people and provide more information.

If you make it possible for governments to decide what content is "limited to adults", they can and will abuse that capability. "Porn" is the battle cry, to make it uncomfortable to argue against; often, other information the government wants to restrict becomes a target. The only way to prevent that is to deny the capability in the first place.

I have yet to see a scheme that would robustly preserve privacy and freedom floated by any of the major efforts. I think the onus is on you to present a workable scheme, but even then I'm not going to support the major efforts which at present are malicious.
Parental controls can set browsers in "child mode" where the browser sends an "I am a child" header to the server and social networks etc. need to honour it. This has existed for twelve years already: https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2014/07/22/prefersafe-mak... . It can probably be amended with a more granular set of levels, but that would be the best way forward.

The problem of "parents are negligent" is also solved by existing laws which have fines for parents who are negligent towards their children, and governments absolutely love collecting fines, so all the incentives are properly aligned.

I should not have to surrender my anonymity because parents are too lazy to setup parental controls.
And it's possible to do age verification in a privacy-preserving manner. I'm tired of repeating it, people should get informed before they complain.

We could totally discuss whether or not privacy-preserving age verification is a good thing. But we can't, because most people can't be arsed to read about what age verification implies, and complain about something that is fundamentally wrong (i.e. that they would have to surrender their anonymity).

How about we just ban entirely the harmful social media that we would need to attach all our IDs to our internet activity in order to protect the children? Very strange that that's not part of the discussion!
Because privacy-preserving age verification is less extreme than banning them entirely. It should be strictly easier to get it accepted.

Except that people can't read for 5min and understand that age verification can be done in a privacy preserving manner.

Zero knowledge proofs don't carry a risk of data breach, because they are zero knowledge.
Your privacy has to be violated in order to receive the easily trackable ZKP tokens.
> Your privacy has to be violated

No.

> the easily trackable ZKP tokens

If it's easily trackable, it's not ZK.

Are they a better solution? Yes

Do they work currently? Not really

Are they too complex for the avg joe to work out. Unfortunately yes. (Something about the smartest bears and the dumbest humans)

Joe can walk into an Apple store (or wherever they purchased the device) and ask them to enable parental controls on it. We have people whose job it is to service computers and phones, they have been around for more than half a century. I am pretty sure most Joes don't service their cars either, yet they keep them road legal by visiting trained mechanics.
As long as Joe has the right to vote, which is something more important and more complex, we cannot complain that parental control is too complex.