[tovej]

Quality of work is not the goal? What is the goal, then? Maximizing profit for the corporation?

I would not want to work anywhere where that is the only goal, even at the employee level. Maximizing profits is not very popular at the moment, for good reason, look at what it's done to the world.

[zkmon]

If profit is not the root goal, only hobbies exist, not work or any business. Quality is a means for profit, never the root goal. People pretend that quality and performance are the root goals, because they don't want say the fact that those two are the means for profit.

Even for opensource, the quality and performance are desirable aspects only because success of that opensource is directly tied to it's usage in profit-oriented products.

[tovej]

You have it backwards.

Why is profit a goal? It's nolever a goal in and of itself, it can only ever be an instrumental goal. "With profits, we can achieve <goal>".

If profit is the main goal of all economic activity, then we are doomed to destroy humanity and the environment.

[zkmon]

Profit is the main goal of all economic activity. Economy is an activity of making and moving money around, which is only possible if you make profit.

[tovej]

The goal of economic activity is allocating resources to human needs.

Money is an instrument to facilitate this, as is profit. Neither of them is the end, they are means. They are also not the only possible means.

Also, you can definitely move money around with making a profit. How is that impossible? Are you telling me no money changes hands if I, e.g. sell something at a loss, or to break even.

Please, think about it for a second.

[svnt]

But this only makes profit the root goal of a certain class of economy, not the actual root goal.

[tappio]

Maximizing profit for the corporation is the goal of any corporation by law, isn't it? Apparently not in the US, but for example the Finnish law explicitly states that the goal of a corporation is to generate profits for the shareholders. If you for example give away company assets for free, it can be considered breaking the law.

This probably is just culturally different understanding of the phrase, because US corporations indeed feel to act greedy, and there is no similar level of protection of the employees.

However, the thing is, in the long term, the business has to make profits to be sustainable. If the company does not make profits, it will die. Its the short term thinking that breaks down companies. You can maximize profits and be ethical at the same time, if the goal is to do it in the long term.

I do understand that the "maximizing profit for the corporation" is a synonym often for short term thinking and vulture capitalism, but for me it meant something else. This is actually quite fascinating now that I think of it, because this phrase means completely different things in different cultural contexts.

So I guess the trigger is that "maximize short term profits over long term sustainability" is the kind of company where I'd never work for.

[limagnolia]

I don't know about Finnish law, but in most US states, when you form an entity, you can put most anything as a purpose. It is quite common to put it as "to engage in any lawful activity".

Beyond that, publicly traded company directors may have (depending on the state) various duties to shareholders to consider profit, but it is generally not considered to be so extreme as to profit above all else.

IRS regulations distinguish between a trade or business and a hobby by looking at the intent to make a profit (as well as the effort). see https://uslawexplained.com/trade_or_business

But it is generally possible to form a legal business under state laws with no intent to profit, the IRS may just treat it as a hobby for tax purposes. (You can't deduct expenses incurred pursuing a hobby, but you can deduct expenses incurred carrying on a trade or business).

[tovej]

Oh I'm aware of Finnish law on the matter (moikka), and that is my point. I think the LLC (OY), which is the political institution that creates this profit maximizing incentive, is _the_ main driver of the current multi-crisis situation that he world finds itself in.

LLCs and the profit motive will not save us from climate change, they will drive us deeper into it. Sustainable human living and continuous economic growth are not compatible.