[Teever]

If this mechanical clock mechanism was part of some sort of Von Neumann probe that was sitting dormant in a star system waiting for the clock to strike a specific time and when that occurs it triggers another mechanism in the probe that combines stored nucleotides to produce a particular sequence of RNA and DNA that is seeded into a suitable world and that soup of RNA and DNA eventually evolves into intelligent biological life that finds the Von Neumann probe and learns to interpret the symbols and purpose of the probe and comes to understand what 3:00 PM means, does that whole system have the real physical property of 3:00 PM in it?

[bch8_]

No because it doesn't physically instantiate the concept of 3:00pm. By the author's contention if you go and find an analog clock right now and read the time, the clock still doesn't have an intrinsic property of "X AM/PM", so it wouldn't in this scenario either.

In a vacuum (Without an observer/mapmaker) there would be no way to derive the semantic content of an analog clock purely from its real physical properties. Additionally, the physical state of an analog clock that we read (map) to say 3PM could be representative of any time whatsoever, because it is purely dependent on the mapping function. The same physical properties could mean "3pm" or "4pm" or "5:48:00 AM" etc etc.

To put it differently, think about (instantiate the concept of) the time 3:00PM right now. Okay, so that thought just existed. When it existed it was comprised of physical processes. Those physical processes bear no relation to the analog clock set to "3PM". Neither are less real, they are just completely distinct physical phenomena. There is no reason in particular to think that a machine capable of computing the time "3PM" bears resemblance to a machine capable of having the thought "It is 3pm" or "[thinking about] the time of 3pm". By the same token there is no particular reason to think that a mind capable of having the thought "It is 3pm" necessarily contains a computer in it, or that a computer is a necessary, constitutive component of that physical thought.

[Teever]

The implication of the argument that you're making is that humans could never understand any alien artifact that we come across. Or that we could never understand the meaning of Egyptian hieroglyphs or Linear B, or that we could ever understand the purpose of the Antikythera mechanism.

It may be the case that it will be impossible for us to understand a particular alien artifact if we came across it because it is too complex for us to understand, but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't be able to understand all alien artifacts that have ever existed (if they exist)

One could say that hieroglyphs are different because they were made by people, so they have a mapmaker but all that indicates is that meaning can persist across the lifespan of the creators and then if that's the case it's just a question of for how long, and through what casual chains can that meaning persist.

You might also suggest that the function of the Antikythera mechanism is just something that we arbitrarily project onto it but that's not likely. The gear ratios correspond to actual astronomical periods that we didn't just arbitrarily decide, instead we discovered them. That means that the meaning as an astrological clock was fixed into the mechanism by the creators and transmitted to us.

It's the same thing with DNA. It has no mapmaker and yet it contains meaning, meaning that we've made tremendous strides to understand. How is that possible for a thing that doesn't have a mapmaker to have meaning?

[bch8_]

No that's not an implication of the argument. You are misunderstanding. It is not necessary to continuously inject increasingly complicated historical scenarios, I am not going to respond to those, we can just talk about the clock. If you want to restate your argument in terms of that example, I will be happy to respond. As it stands I am not even sure what you think the argument was if those are the implications, or what the point of all of these scenarios is supposed to be. Also, I am just relaying the argument of the paper FYI, I am not making the argument.