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by kamaal 4963 days ago
As an Indian and somebody who studied the non violence moment of Gandhi both in South Africa and India. I can talk about the nature of political movements, I studied in quite a great detail. Even in India, the nature of non violence movement was not completely non violent- Its true that non violence came as a overwhelming force for the British. But the British did deal and perceive violent revolutionary sources as a equally big threat. There is always a big debate in India that Bhagat Singh was an equally big threat to British, as much as Gandhi. There were and continued to be pockets of violence till the Indian independence.

Secondly, violent attacks don't often serve any thing more than 'symbolism'.In this case, there is a century long history, of a persecuted community being settled on already existing nation. Now persecuted community has its reasons, but the existing people see why they are being driven out and find no acceptable reason for that. Add to this, a massive refugee problem, being forced to live densely crowded areas. No adequate supply of food, water, medicine, electricity for 50 years now. Sub human sanitation conditions. Having to endow the humiliation to stop at check points to move around in their own country, watch their land being endlessly consumed by settlers. Coupled with this the occupier has, a endless diplomatic, military and financial support of the biggest super power in human history. The oppressed can do nothing about it, because the military option isn't even an option. Diplomatic doors are closed.

If you feel these sort of people to not get frustrated, something is wrong about your understanding of human emotions.

Its in the human nature to empathize with the oppressed. And in fact this is the biggest problem with the kind of activity Anonymous has done. Israel isn't troubled because websites are going down for a couple of hours, they are troubled that there are people with some power and say in their hands, who empathize with the Palestinians. This is dangerous, and even fatal for the Israelis. Far more dangerous than the rockets themselves.

4 comments

> Even in India, the nature of non violence movement was not completely non violent

It's difficult, if not impossible, for non-violent movements to succeed without the existence of credible threat of violence. Sad, but generally true. This was true of Ghandi and Bhagat Singh's India, as it was for ANC (or MK) and Mandela's South Africa.

The Israelis have little motivation to come to the negotiating table towards a diplomatic solution because the threat of violence against them is not credible enough to act as a deterrent. It is rational for Israel to not show restraint and act in the most aggressive manner possible.

I think it was Thomas Friedman who said this, if the Palestinians resort to terror attacks, Israel will just use that to attack them more. They remain silent, and they will just go on building settlements. Either way they will lose.

Gandhi's non violence movement was successful because he won the PR war by a very heavy margin. Greatest intellectuals of his time were writing essays on him, images of a thin old man, wearing just a homespun cloth marching on streets, giving speeches to keep restraint and never to submit co operate to bend to the British. Combined with his cause for the poor, and fighting against traditional caste based problems in India made him a hero among rural masses. All in all it made the British look very bad to be even putting up a fight against him.

If there is a every a break out of videos or pictures of Palestinians going on mass hunger fasts. Or that of they standing in the line of fire embracing bullets in the face of a F-16 firing on them and they not retaliating back. Things like that can do far more damage than rocket attacks can.

In fact there was some Palestinian guy and a couple of women who fasted in the Israeli jails and got their way some months back. Its surprising who much 'not fighting' can be powerful than 'fighting' provided you get the Press coverage.

Palestine's Gandhi movement can be very dangerous for the Israelis.

The problem is that the offered solution to the conflict (2-state solution) is horribly wrong, and will never work out in the long-term. The only way to solve this conflict is with the 3-state solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-state_solution).

So first, they need to have a proper solution in mind, so that everyone agrees on a trajectory for negotiations, and then do whatever they can to end the conflict. The thing is, whenever talks of a 3-state solution start, the other Arab nations show us that they don't really care about the Palestinians because they tend to reject it.

Things like that can do far more damage than rocket attacks can.

No, not really. We have cases like this:

http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/05/17/201019/non-viol...

and it doesn't seem to change anything.

Also, is there any writer on foreign affairs more ignorant than Thomas Friedman?

Many cases like that existed during the Indian Independence movement too. One that is very famous is the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre) In which a general ordered his army to fire at a crowd of innocent women, children and men totally unarmed and assembled to celebrate a festival. Its a very famous lesson taught in history classes in schools here in India. Read the wiki article.

Despite such a heinous act of cowardice.

Dyer was removed from duty and forced to retire. He became a celebrated hero in Britain among people with connections to the British Raj.

It worked in his native country, but by and large it did do a lot of damage and paved a way for national awakening to fight for independence in India.

Actually the best way to help the Palestinians currently is give them cameras, ways to publish their stories. And then teach these principles of non violence. World will listen sooner or later and its far better than firing rockets and killing innocent people at the other end. And it fulfills their purpose very well.

best way to help the Palestinians currently is give them cameras, ways to publish their stories

I've seen lots of videos like that on youtube and read lots of stories like that over the years. It doesn't seem to be helping.

far better than firing rockets and killing innocent people at the other end.

There are 2.5 million people living in Gaza. Do you expect every single one of them to agree with you? And if you don't have perfect consensus from all 2.5 million, can your plan still work? Because it seems to me that if even a small number reject your plan and fire a few $100 rockets, the non-violent efforts of the rest will be ignored and they'll be tarred with rocketers. Right?

There are definetly lessons to be learned from India's struggle but I think a big difference is that Brittain didn't have the religious motivation for occupation that Israel has. It makes it much more difficult for Israel to back off.
Slightly off-topic: I read somewhere once that Ghandi advised German Jewish Leaders that they should have tried his tactic of non-violence against the Nazis. I think they replied that the British Empire, although wrong, weren't monsters like the Nazis.
That's actually true. In fact you can read that on Gandhi's wikiquote page - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_K._Gandhi [To Every Briton (1940)]

Actually non violence worked for more than one reason. Its also that the British, after world war 2 had no where the resources to control a massive country like India. It was also there purpose was done, and things were getting way out of their control. And it was better to leave honorably.

I appreciate your analysis, but no, the rockets are more fatal and dangerous than script kiddies hitting "Go" on their LOIC application from the comfort of their homes, far away from danger. Taking down websites and leaking passwords is inconsequential juvenility when compared to the hell that Israelis in S'derot have been living in for years and years and what citizens of Tel Aviv are experiencing now.

Hamas is a homophobic, misogynistic, illiberal, theocratic terrorist organization and Anonymous is supporting them.

Yes, that is the reason why I'm suggesting that the Palestinians must show restraint, despite the frustration. Pursue a total non violent path.

Food, medicine and water is blockaded? sure. Go on a mass hunger strike. Let the world know about it, inform them about your suffering. I guess that has already started to some extent too. Forced into a apartheid set up on your land, forced to go through humiliating check points? March peacefully with full restraint to the check point. Don't get violent no matter what. Show the world what's happening there.

This is far better than the rocket attacks.

> Food, medicine and water is blockaded? sure. Go on a mass hunger strike. Let the world know about it, inform them about your suffering.

Food, medicine and water are not blockaded?

Israel allows enormous amounts of aid to pass into the Gaza Strip on a daily basis.

Sure, they let some through - but not enough to support the people there on anything more than a borderline subsistence level.

http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/07/mideast-israel-chokes-gaza-de...

Is there a humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip? No.

Israel provides the residents of the Strip with food, water, electricity, medical supplies, etc. The residents respond with rockets aimed at Israeli civilians.

Well then - I guess there's not much point in arguing with you.
Well that is an interesting proposal but Israel is occupying the West Bank and blockading Gaza out of security concerns, not out of any sort of program of racial subjugation (remember that there are Arabs and other ethnic groups in Israel that have full rights and representation under Israeli law).

By that I mean to say that if there existed the state of affairs, the political will, where a totally non-violent path was desirable and possible for Palestinians to pursue, there wouldn't be a need for these policies which they would hypothetically be protesting against in the first place.

I think your analysis is pretty one sided there. Palestinians have to live with far worse danger - Hamas don't have helicopter gunships or laser guided bombs, for example.

Israel is in a far more powerful position; they should be the ones showing restraint.

As a similar Indian born in Britain, I agree with your observations about the paradox of violence inherent in the movement. I should add that non-violence only works when governments are vulnerable to moral pressure and this was not true in Zimbabwe and it is not true of Israel.