[gortok]

Here’s the issue.

We don’t have any serious leaders on this issue. We don’t have scholarship divorced from politics about this issue. Maybe we never will. The Austrian school basically thinks this is the end of the world. The MMT folks think this is business as usual. The Keynesians are somewhere in the middle, but being in the middle of the road politically is not the same as an apolitical view on this.

As a lay person who hasn’t studied economics enough to understand if this is an actual issue or a theoretical issue, I really need some politics-free scholarship on this.

It doesn’t help that our political leaders say it’s an issue, unless it’s their party that wants that spending, then it’s fine. The right says it’s fine as long as it goes to endless wars, and the left says it’s fine when we spend the money on social programs. Both say it’s bad when the other side spends it, but not when their own spends it.

This is exhausting and demonstrably not helping us resolve the fundamental issue of how do you manage a large society without it imploding.

[rich_sasha]

The practical framing would be as two follow-up questions: what do the lenders care about? And what happens empirically when debt spirals?

If lenders do nothing, then nothing really matters - keep borrowing and let your debt grow exponentially.

In practice though, lenders, in their wisdom or folly, get spooked when debt goes up. In the Greek debt crisis, it all started with debt in the region of 130% of GDP. Rolling the debt with more debt spiralled away as lenders wanted an ever higher interest.

So US would either need to start really inflating its debt and test the investors patience, print the cash and let inflation run away, or tax and cut spending.

In the first scenario it kind of doesn't matter where the limit is - people sometimes argue about magic levels. The issue is that eventually the debt grows exponentially, so once it's out of control, it will exceed any reasonable level pretty quickly.

Can the US convince the world that their debt is special? I'm not sure. My reading is that investors are already twitchy about US debt, for other reasons for now, but higher debt levels surely won't calm them down.

So really I think the US has no better choice than to keep its debt down.

[throw0101a]

> If lenders do nothing, then nothing really matters - keep borrowing and let your debt grow exponentially.

Lenders are currently doing nothing: that does not necessarily mean they will do nothing forever.

Because should the lender actually do something eventually, the lendee may be in a world of hurt. The borrower probably does not get to the point when lenders start doing something.

[ndsipa_pomu]

100% of GDP is a level of debt that seems unlikely to be paid back, so presumably most lenders aren't considering whether they'll eventually get their money back, but instead are focussed on getting their interest payments. I suppose the crunch is when alternatives become a better mix of risk/return.

[Ekaros]

I don't think paying whole thing back has been on table for decent while. The question really comes down to is the return from interest sufficient compared to other options, will the price of underlying asset keeps it value at par. Meaning can you offload it before maturation and not lose. And finally will at maturation refinance be possible.

With money printing or some FED operations I doubt there will be default on principals. It might happen if sufficient political pressure is in place though unlikely. So in the end risk is spiking rates and inflation being foreseen. No point investing on losing bet.

[ndsipa_pomu]

Yeah, there's a constant stream of new investments and paying back of some debts, so as long as some investors are interested, the full repayment never needs to happen.

Of course, as the risk increases, investors will want higher returns to consider it a good bet as otherwise the debt repayments will start to overshadow the new investments.

[bombcar]

Everything I've ever seen shows that problems in these areas happen very slowly, and then all at once.

Previous similar (but totally different) situations ended in wars.

[OGWhales]

> The MMT folks think this is business as usual

MMT folks generally advocate that inflation is the way to measure if the spending is "too much" and argue that spending should generally aim to improve productivity (i.e. increase gdp) to minimize this issue (e.g. spending to build infrastructure so people can get to work is productive vs spending so people stay home is inflationary).

There is this pervasive idea that MMT promotes limitless spending and I'm not sure where it comes from, what they actually preach feels like a reasonable way to evaluate government spending to me.

[kemotep]

I think the major argument against MMT is that no one has the stomach to actually implement the level of taxation necessary to counteract inflation when it starts to rise too quickly. Or at least no major political party in the United States.

Everything can be sound on paper about MMT but if no one is going to practice it properly then the theory isn’t really going to work out.

As much as “eating your vegetables” in terms of government budget policy makes sense, if making people do that in practice gets you immediately voted out of office (or not even elected in the first place), then we won’t be eating our vegetables.

[schnitzelstoat]

Keynesianism has the same problem - the government is supposed to spend in the bad times (to keep the economy moving) and save in the good times. But in the good times there is an incredible pressure on the government to spend more as tax revenues increase.

[ethbr1]

The issue here is divorcing budgeting from democracy, which I believe Germany did after their travails?

Similar to how well-run companies separate their CFO duties (how much we can and can't afford) and from their CEO ones (what we choose to invest that in).

The US has that in the monetary side (for now, the Fed) but has never had that on the budgetary side with Congress being concerned with being reelected (and bringing home the bacon being a reliable way to make that happen).

Paying down US debt seriously will only happen if Congress and the President choose to cede part of their spending cap authority to an independent entity, and that's never likely to happen.

[nostrademons]

It's really hard to do that in the general case. As the aphorism goes, "Show me your budgets and I'll show you your priorities", and in a democratic society, the priorities are supposed to be decided by the voters.

You could however envision a system where the bottom-line (the overall budget surplus or deficit) is dictated algorithmically by economic conditions, with the government free to move funds between different priorities, raise taxes, or cut overall spending as long as they met the target budget surplus. Actually wouldn't be a bad idea; it mimics how private organizations and households have to adjust their spending to fit constraints. The whole idea of algorithmic central banking and algorithmic fiscal policy could be quite interesting, particularly now that you have cryptocurrency where you can build algorithms into the nature of money itself.

[ethbr1]

Better said than I: that was the distinction I was trying to make.

What should absolutely be democratic.

Bottom line, maybe we try less so.

[pragmatic]

The US is All Keynes All The Time.

[eggprices]

MMT is descriptive, not prescriptive - the economy follows MMT whether you agree it does or not. Separate from MMT, are the ways you would expect would be good ways to run an economy if you believe the economy follows MMT (which it does).

[akramachamarei]

Almost no economists agree with MMT¹. How do you square that with believing it's descriptive?

1: https://www.businessinsider.com/economist-survey-alexandria-...

[OGWhales]

I think it's worth looking at what was actually asked. From your article, they were asked these two questions:

> Countries that borrow in their own currency should not worry about government deficits because they can always create money to finance their debt

> Countries that borrow in their own currency can finance as much real government spending as they want by creating money.

MMT is quite clear about limiting factors that make those two statements false, yet the article frames them as "the basic aspects of MMT". To me, those questions feel intentionally malicious and even if not, the survey is certainly meaningless as to the opinions of economists on what MMT actually describes.

[throwaway34903]

The parent comment isn't saying MMT is true or false. They are just saying MMT is a theory of how the economy operates (descriptive). _If_ you take it as true then here are things you can do (prescriptive).

It's sort of like saying something like the water-sky color theory is descriptive not prescriptive. The theory is that the sky is blue because water is blue and light reflects that color back into the sky. There is no behavioral prescription just a description of how one influences the other. If you want to change the color of the sky change the color of the oceans. That part would be prescriptive. This says nothing of whether the theory is well-founded or how many scientist agree with it.

Parent is saying MMT simply lays out a theory of how a (our) economy currently operates, not whether it's good or bad. People who adhere to the theory would then derive their policy prescriptions based on it being true and (crucially) their desired economic/political/social outcomes.

[akramachamarei]

Your point is well taken, but I think @eggprices was affirming the descriptive validity or truth of MMT by saying:

> [...] if you believe the economy follows MMT (which it does).

[rich_sasha]

To make matters worse, when inflation spikes, that's kind of when people need the money. Good luck radically increasing taxes in a 10% inflation shock.

[eggprices]

People not being able to afford things is the point of raising taxes to curb inflation. When people can't afford things they don't buy things and that's what lowers inflation.

[rich_sasha]

But there's a time mismatch, at least at typical government action timeframes. Quarterly inflation looks high, meaning people are already out of pocket. Tax goes up at the same price levels, making people more out of pocket. Inflation reduces, hopefully, but that doesn't mean prices go down - people remain out of pocket. Then, you hope, wages catch up, but that whole cycle can easily take a year.

Elections are on average 2-3 years away. Midterms in USofA 1 year away.

[nostrademons]

The point of economics is to give people what they can have, not to give them what they want. High inflation in a MMT context means that the economy as a whole wants more than it can have. The reason for the inflation is that people are bidding against each other for scarce goods; you've injected more means to pay than exists means to produce. The way you cure it [1] is by reducing demand, which you do by decreasing the means to pay. MMT proposes doing this by increasing taxes; monetarism proposes doing it by increasing interest rates. But in both cases, the whole mechanism for solving the problem is people going without things that they want, which will almost always be unpopular.

[1] When you can't increase production capacity, which in a macro full-employment context means increasing productivity, which is outside the scope of MMT or most other schools of macroeconomics.

[projektfu]

It's easier to put them out of work. That's what we do here.

[CWuestefeld]

There is this pervasive idea that MMT promotes limitless spending and I'm not sure where it comes from

Right. The theory says you can (should?) spend until you hit the "inflation ceiling," then use taxes to drain liquidity.

But what we saw in 2020-2022 was that we hit the ceiling at 100mph. The "tax it away" solution proved to be a political fantasy. No politician is going to hike taxes on the middle class to cool down the price of eggs.

My understanding (I'm not an economist) is that MMT is currently viewed as a "fair-weather theory." It explained why we could spend during a liquidity trap, but offered no viable steering mechanism once the engine overheated.

In my mind, this puts it in the same box as Keynesianism. Both theories are politically convenient because they offer politicians an excuse to pander. But those politicians aren't willing to do what their pet theory would require once the emergent crisis has passed.

[throw0101a]

> But what we saw in 2020-2022 was that we hit the ceiling at 100mph.

Except that 2020-2022 was not (completely) about fiscal/monetary problems that could be fixed with fiscal/monetary solutions. A good portion of the spike was because of 'outside' factor(s), e.g.:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_war_(2022–pres...

What would extra taxation do to help that? There are various types of inflation, categorized by 'root cause', and 'too much money' is not the source of all of them:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation#View_post-2000_to_pr...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost-push_inflation

[jjk166]

> But what we saw in 2020-2022 was that we hit the ceiling at 100mph.

The 2020-2022 inflation spike wasn't due to following MMT based spending policies though. Slamming the brakes at 100mph may certainly have bad consequences, but driving at 100mph in low visibility conditions was the problem, not braking before you hit something.

The fact is everyone knew the combination of supply chain disruptions, remote work, and the changes in spending habits would eventually produce inflation, and yet we kept pumping money in. Every economic school would have advised against that course of action. MMT only calls for spending to keep pace with economic growth, not to run the money printers as fast as you can.

Economic theories, like scientific theories, are successful if they correctly predict what will happen if you do X. If the theory of gravity predicts that you will fall to your death if you jump off a cliff, it's not a failure of the theory of gravity that it doesn't tell you how to levitate after you've already jumped.

[CWuestefeld]

Economic theories, like scientific theories, are successful if they correctly predict what will happen if you do X.

In addition, an economic theory can only be useful if the actions that they dictate can actually be put into practice; if nobody's going to follow what the theory tells you to do, then it's of little use at all.

This is the big problem with both MMT and Keynesianism: they're both great figleafs for politicians to wear when they want to spend in order to pander. But when the theory tells them that the situation has changed and they need to change their actions accordingly, they don't heed the need to raise taxes (MMT) or slash spending (Keynes).

Unless we really do the thing, then pointing at a given macroeconomic theory is just an excuse.

[jjk166]

> In addition, an economic theory can only be useful if the actions that they dictate can actually be put into practice; if nobody's going to follow what the theory tells you to do, then it's of little use at all.

That is not a requirement for a theory to be useful. The fact that not using it has a cost is proof of its utility.

[Obscurity4340]

Why is remote working considered inflationary?

[jjk166]

Remote working itself isn't inflationary, but transitioning from office to remote is. Remote workers can get high paying jobs in low cost of living areas and can generally job hop with less friction so salaries rise, spending that would have gone to commuting expenses and daytime childcare is now disposable income, people spending more of their time at home causes them to invest in larger or nicer homes. More money getting thrown at fewer items causes prices to rise.

[rsync]

I don’t think it is.

In fact, all else being equal, switching to work from home should be deflationary.

You spend less on gas, less on eating out, less on movement and activity in general…

The transition to work from home may very well be inflationary… But the end result seems quite obviously deflationary to me.

[shimman]

It's also pretty funny when you realize that the GOP loves MMT when it comes granting tax cuts but when you use the same MMT principles they use for say social welfare suddenly MMT is nonsense!

[franktankbank]

Faulty to think we can outsource our inflation globally when that chain can get yanked outside our control.

[danans]

> The right says it’s fine as long as it goes to endless wars, and the left says it’s fine when we spend the money on social programs. Both say it’s bad when the other side spends it, but not when their own spends it.

Spending is only one part. The part that almost nobody wants to touch is raising taxes to support the spending.

[davidu]

Because raising taxes has only resulted in more spending, not balancing the budget.

[bryanlarsen]

That's not true. Bill Clinton both slightly raised taxes and significantly lowered spending in relative terms, balancing the budget in the process.

[TheCoelacanth]

Obama also cut the deficit by more than half. It didn't get all the way to a balanced budget because of how bad of a mess Bush left to clean up, but it was moving in the right direction.

[bryanlarsen]

And as a sibling post noted, Bush senior also both raised taxes and lowered spending on a relative basis. So the original assertion is decisively disproven -- half of our modern era presidents (along with the Congress they presided over) did not behave the way they said "only happens".

[weard_beard]

Incentives are key. If Congress does not present a balanced budget then there has to be consequences. Many other countries work this way. No balanced budget forthcoming? Then there is an immediate collapse of the current government or ruling party and run-off elections to replace them.

[Rapzid]

To give credit though it was a largely republican congress that did it. You just need a democrat in the White House to motivate them.

[RickJWagner]

Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich.

Perhaps the best left/right cooperative government of our lifetime.

Skeptical? Review the famous Contract with America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_with_America

[myvoiceismypass]

Contract with America convinced enough rubes in America that Republicans actually had a plan (which netted them Congress!) It was a giant failure in terms of actually accomplishing a fraction of the goals it set out, though.

[RickJWagner]

One result was the small surplus in the budget.

Does Clinton deserve a. Ok the credit, for signing off on it? No, of course not. He deserves some of the credit. The rest goes to the Republican congress, which did the budgeting.

Credit where credit is due.

[zorak8me]

This ignores history. We did raise taxes in the 90s and were paying off our debt. Bush senior made the big boy decision and it left us in amazing shape. Clinton handed over a government to W that was paying off debts and had surplus from 1998-2001.

[ethbr1]

Slight note that Bush Senior also got tossed out of office in part for being fiscally responsible.

We probably want to fix that quirk, if we want politicians more reliably doing the fiscally sound thing.

[zorak8me]

Absolutely. One note though - it wasn’t just the raised tax, it was that he very explicitly promised to not raise taxes. Maybe doesn’t get elected without that promise but I really don’t know enough about politics before Clinton/Newt Gingrich.

[nyeah]

The US had a balanced budget in 2001, after decades of most people claiming that was impossible. The problem with a balanced budget is we all have to live in the real world. The actual real world that you can measure, not each individual's theoretical world of choice.

But stories are much more fun than data, and we put everything on the credit card, and here we are.

[AnimalMuppet]

But cutting taxes has also resulted in more spending.

[ButlerianJihad]

All sibling comments are untrue, because it is the legislative branch that has the "power of the purse", including the ability to raise/lower taxes and pass budgets for spending.

So whether an executive makes campaign promises, takes credit for signing the bills into law, or championing the bills and advocating that Congress pass them, it is ultimately Congress--the House with the Senate--that has done these things with taxes and the budget.

[bryanlarsen]

It's common practice to refer to terms by the president of the period even if they're much less responsible for the effects than is implied.

Taxes went up and relative spending went down during the period when Bush Sr was president and Democrats controlled the House & Senate.

Taxes went up and relative spending went down during the period when Clinton was president and Republicans controlled the House & Senate.

This was not true when they had a trifecta. There are reasons many Americans prefer the parties split power.

[dfxm12]

The part that almost nobody wants to touch is raising taxes to support the spending.

NYC passed their pied a terre tax. Even federally, at least some in congress are trying to push for new taxes. Taxing the wealthy is the most popular way to lower the debt.

https://jayapal.house.gov/2026/03/26/jayapal-warren-boyle-45...

https://thehill.com/business/economy/5554777-gallup-poll-nat...

[danans]

> Taxing the wealthy is the most popular way to lower the debt.

Let me clarify: Few in the mainstream of current politics and media want to discuss higher taxes on the uber wealthy (1B and up) - much less the very wealthy (100M and up).

It's only happening in a few places at the state and local level, but that's challenging because of the ability of the wealthy to move residence between states (something the pied a terre tax cleverly works around).

It also seems to have a lot more purchase these days in forums like this. My comment above about raising taxes would likely have received much more opposition 10 years ago. It seems like the consciousness here has shifted, probably because many here have a front row seat to the emergence of the tech oligarchy.

[ethbr1]

> My comment above about raising taxes would likely have received much more opposition 10 years ago. It seems like the consciousness here has shifted, probably because many here have a front row seat to the emergence of the tech oligarchy.

I think HN specifically, and the country more generally, has become disgusted with the magnitude of wealth concentration.

Very few here probably believe Ellison, Gates, Bezos, Page/Brin, Elon, or Zuckerberg don't deserve to be very rich.

But that reasonable "very" is 2-3 orders of magnitude less than their current net worth.

That's what many people feel is the broken part of end stage capitalism.

[danans]

> I think HN specifically, and the country more generally, has become disgusted with the magnitude of wealth concentration.

I'd like to believe this, but the proof is in the pudding, the pudding being how they vote. Apart from a few well known politicians, most of them aren't running on a platform of countering oligarchs.

A HNer might ask themselves: do I vote for the future where preserve low taxes in case I become massively wealthy, or do I vote for the future where I work for my income?

[AnimalMuppet]

Yeah, this. The one issue that unites left and right (and pretty much everyone else): We do not want to pay for this much government.

One step past there, of course, there is no more unity. Can we just run a deficit forever with no consequences? I have a profound distrust of free lunches, but I can't prove that MMT is false. I'm almost certain that it is, but I can't prove it to the satisfaction of anyone who believes it.

But even if you don't believe MMT, then what? Can we keep going a while longer without too much damage? Should we?

And if not, then we have to cut some things or raise some taxes or both, and that's where the political trench warfare starts.

[emaro]

I want to raise taxes to get rid of billionaires and the historically high inequality resulting in many (most?) of today's problems. More money for the government makes it a win-win. Not American, so I don't have a horse in this particular race.

[jvanderbot]

Thanks for sharing your opinion. The first difficulty in real world (even idealized) politics is voicing a consistent independent stance and thinking through the implications. Many cannot even make it that far.

The second and greater difficulty is that realizing that a solution that is politically untenable is not a solution, it's a campaign slogan. I don't know how we get people to move past this difficulty.

[wormy67]

I assume you are suggesting that a tax on the rich is not politically viable.

When the structural violence that permeates our society finally manifests in the only violence the lower class can execute - this non-viability might change.

It will be a harrowing time- and I hope we avoid this.

The billionaires will cease to exist one way or another.

[jvanderbot]

If your solution to a societal problem is to kill someone because they have something you want, you really dont have a solution.

[LeifCarrotson]

I'm an American with a few horses in this race, and I also want to raise taxes to get rid of billionaires and provide more money to the government.

I'd prefer to use that money for "progressive" things like schools and libraries and parks (voted in 2024 to increase my own taxes on those things specifically, but my neighbors voted against them), but I'd even settle for spending it on the military if it came out of the pockets of the oligarchs to reduce inequality.

[jvanderbot]

If only there were more agreeable ways to create beautiful public spaces and public services.

[eggprices]

Every other country seems to manage it. Those countries also don't have school shootings.

[reactordev]

Money is make believe if it’s not backed by something. Ever since 1970s, money has been a figment of imaginations. We only have a semblance of balancing (or attempting to) the budget but reality is they just print the paper or update a sql row. Done. More money.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Ever since 1970s, money has been a figment of imaginations

Money has always been a social construct. There is no fundamental particle of currency.

[reactordev]

right, something we have assigned a value to. We disagree on. We find the common denominator and have a deal or we don't. could be a sticky note, could be a rock, but we decided it's 2.5"x6" paper with ink on it.

[mothballed]

There was no deal, except maybe initially the promise to exchange for gold that the government defaulted on.

The government said pay taxes in USD or go to jail. They pay their contractors and employees USD (some of which can essentially be "eased" out of thin air). After those people get it, they can say "jump bitch" and you or someone you want to trade with will do what they say, because without those USD you won't be able to settle your tax debts.

[throw0101a]

> There was no deal, except maybe initially the promise to exchange for gold that the government defaulted on.

Gold came into the "money" game quite late. The earliest forms of money we have are with credit, on tablets dating back to Ur III (>3000 BC); gold came later (Lydians in 700 BC).

Credit has been part of many societies, even that had gold/silver floating around (because for most of the folks who were near the bottom, they didn't have enough to lay claim to any precious metal):

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5,000_Years

Even the much-vaunted Gold Standard was only really a thing for ~50 years:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

And it's not like it provided price stability:

* https://archive.is/https://www.theatlantic.com/business/arch...

In some circumstances the use of gold as the base of currencies caused problems:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression#Causes_of_the_...

[JumpCrisscross]

> without those USD you won't be able to settle your tax debts

In countries where people don't want to hold the local currency, they exchange whatever for local currency when they need it.

[ModernMech]

I dunno it seems to me that whenever the Democrats are in office the deficits start to go down; and whenever there is a Republican in office they tend to go up. That's been the pattern my whole life so far.

Like, you say the two sides are the same because one wants to spend endless money on wars and the other wants to spend endless money on social programs, but we only ever spend endless money on wars. There's no spending comparable to war on poverty / illiteracy / sickness / homelessness.

[stfp]

Same observation. I’m beginning to think that it’s not about “spending” like if money was a finite resource. It’s really about the outcome of the policy: more power for elites and more access to energy and resources; vs more power and independence for regular people (and thus less for elites relatively speaking). From a “spending” perspective you could really do both and in the real economy they don’t even compete for the same resources.

[atwrk]

Having an economic science without politics at all isn't really possible - you have to define a goal for economic development to evaluate different approaches. And defining that goal introduces politics into economics. "Development for what or whom or whether at all" simply can't answered in a neutral way, it will always be in the interests of some and against the interests of others.

[gortok]

Isn’t the whole point of a ‘scientific approach’ to reduce biases and to study the problem independently of how the problem affects us? Why do we call things sciences but we’re unwilling/unable to divorce our biases from the process of studying a thing?

[atwrk]

My background is in educational science where we face similar dilemmas. In both fields I'd say there is no conflict between scientific rigor and political goals as long as you make your goals transparent.

The fact that you want to study economic processes because you want to e.g. better the live of the poor half of society does not mean you can't apply scientific principles. But the results will not necessarily be applicable for those who think a rising tide lifts all boats and therefore want to develop the economy in the interest of the upper class.

In fact I'd be suspicious if people claim to be unbiased in any field that even remotely has something to do with humans or society - it usually just means they either hide their interests, or aren't aware of their biases.

[dfxm12]

the left says it’s fine when we spend the money on social programs.

FWIW, for every dollar given to people for social programs like the child tax credit, they spend $1.50-$2 locally. This seems fine to me & it was popular country-wide. Meanwhile, we've gained nothing from the Iran war. We've obviously lost money and probably weakened our global standing and strengthened some of our enemies. It is also unpopular with the people. You don't have to "both sides" every issue. You can assume republican leadership is generally bad and don't have to give them the benefit of the doubt on issues you're not studied on.

https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/tax-cre... https://economicsecurityproject.org/resource/public-opinion-...

[rawgabbit]

If we look at the worst case, the French Revolution, it started with a deeply indebted Louis XVI.

Jacques Necker tried to restore investor confidence by publishing the Compte rendu au roi in 1781, which hid key expenses. This allowed the king to continue borrowing but did not fix the fiscal crisis.

Attempts at tax reform failed due to resistance from the nobility and the clergy who paid nothing, leading Louis XVI to convene the Estates-General of 1789. Which triggered a series of events leading to the revolution.

Revolutionary leaders seized Church lands and issued assignats to fund the state, but overissuance caused inflation. More durable financial stabilization came later under Napoleon Bonaparte through institutional reforms and, in part, revenues from military campaigns. He looted much of the wealth of the Italians who he “freed” from the Austrians.

The insight I get is that the debt is similar to NIMBY. Local interests benefit from an ever increasing debt, but collectively we are all hurt by it.

[dpkirchner]

> I really need some politics-free scholarship on this.

It's impossible to discuss GDP without politics, could you describe exactly what it is about political discussion that you'd want to avoid?

[gortok]

If it’s impossible to discuss GDP without politics, then it’s impossible in our current political climate to discuss whether or not debt as a function of GDP is a valid measure of an issue, and the practical effects of that issue.

It would seem that functionally the only real world impact would be spending more money to service that debt.

Ok, what about just cancelling that debt? Some economists have said “it’s money we owe ourselves”, so why not just forgive ourselves of our own debt? What would be the real world impact? What would happen?

We keep attaching political value judgments to this without reasonably discussing the practical implications free of our own political dogmas.

[stackskipton]

>Ok, what about just cancelling that debt? Some economists have said “it’s money we owe ourselves”, so why not just forgive ourselves of our own debt? What would be the real world impact? What would happen?

It's tied to Treasury Bonds that people hold so they would become worthless.

[AnimalMuppet]

Yeah. "Cancelling the debt" sounds great. "Cancelling my pension or my IRA" doesn't sound so good.

[solumunus]

> Ok, what about just cancelling that debt? Some economists have said “it’s money we owe ourselves”, so why not just forgive ourselves of our own debt? What would be the real world impact? What would happen?

It's not money we owe "ourselves", it's money we owe each other. When you buy government bonds you're lending money to the government. Cancelling the debt is just stealing the money everyday people and investment institutions have lent to the government. What would happen is people would lose a huge portion of their investments and pensions and it would be catastrophic.

Honestly it's wild to spout an opinion in this thread if you don't understand this.

[theowsmnsn]

Eventually all the debt is canceled right after dollar looses it's reserved currency status

[subw00f]

You keep using words like “us” and “ourselves” but I don’t think you understand that you’re not in the same class as the people who lend the money or the people who lobby for how any public resources are going to be spent at all.

[jccc]

Gortok is very obviously talking about red/blue team bias, trying to get objective scholarship on the issue that is unbiased in that sense.

[atwrk]

That wasn't so clear IMO, or do you see those three schools (Austrian, MMT, Keynes) mapping cleanly to the two teams somehow?

[jayd16]

It's more about how random bits and blurbs from every school are used to suit the politics of the day.

[mothballed]

I view it as a rational play of prisoners dilemma in a nation with central bank and fiat currency. You will ~always lose (well until things get hyperinflationary) to someone promising OPM without more taxes. The system since the 70s ensures that.

[marcosdumay]

As somebody already pointed, you should always ignore the Austrians.

Now, keep in mind that "business as usual" is different from "not an issue". The MMT folks will be able to tell you exactly what the consequences are (a hint, they are not very different from when it was 95% of the GDP), while the Keynesians will rush to tell you that the stuff the MMT people are talking about isn't as important as other stuff the government could be doing. Notice that both can be correct at the same time.

Empirically, at some level of inflation the Keynesians become just wrong. Most people usually stop being Keynesian at that level.

[bryanlarsen]

What's the difference between MMT & Keynes? Keynes is the one who gave the "what you can do you can afford" speech. IMO (some) MMT folks are more Keynesian than many modern "Keynesians".

[marcosdumay]

"Keynesians" are not people that talk about the ideas Keynes had. It's quite common for most "ians" or "ists" to not push the ideas their name implies.

Yes, MMT is largely based on Keynes ideas, so they will say a lot of the same that Keynes actually said.

At the same time, "Keynesianism" is more of a political movement than a scientific school (although, it's a well informed one). That's why they can be right or wrong independently from MMT. "Monetarism" is also a political movement, that people often confuse or try to claim to be the same as MMT.

[throw0101a]

> What's the difference between MMT & Keynes?

MMT seems to be 'always "print"' and then tax. Keynes is more about induce demand by government when it's needed:

> I would summarize the Keynesian view in terms of four points:

> 1. Economies sometimes produce much less than they could, and employ many fewer workers than they should, because there just isn’t enough spending. Such episodes can happen for a variety of reasons; the question is how to respond.

> 2. There are normally forces that tend to push the economy back toward full employment. But they work slowly; a hands-off policy toward depressed economies means accepting a long, unnecessary period of pain.

> 3. It is often possible to drastically shorten this period of pain and greatly reduce the human and financial losses by “printing money”, using the central bank’s power of currency creation to push interest rates down.

> 4. Sometimes, however, monetary policy loses its effectiveness, especially when rates are close to zero. In that case temporary deficit spending can provide a useful boost. And conversely, fiscal austerity in a depressed economy imposes large economic losses.

* https://archive.nytimes.com/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/0...

Now most governments run deficits in the modern world, and that is "fine" as long as borrowing costs/rates are lower than inflation and/or economic growth. And that you should generally be spending on things that helps raise productivity or induce economic growth.

Things like tax cuts generally don't do this:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment

Unfocused military 'forays' also tend not to do this.

[nyeah]

Keynes was aware of the inflation problem.

[throw0101a]

And deflation (he published his General Theory in 1936).

[JumpCrisscross]

> MMT folks

Does this still have purchase? I thought following post-Covid inflation, the MMT folks took a backseat (in politics).

[derektank]

“Stephanie Kelton: Have you considered the possibility that raising rates might move inflation higher?

Jason Furman: No”

Covid really exposed who did and did not understand what they were doing.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Covid really exposed who did and did not understand what they were doing

Who, in your reading, is the dummy in that exchange? (And what does it have to do with MMT following post-Covid inflation.)

[derektank]

Kelton is a leading proponent of MMT and while I wouldn’t call her a dummy, she and other MMT proponents work themselves into pretzels trying to pretend inflation isn’t a serious problem that needs to be addressed by policymakers.

[iamnothere]

The problem is that our political leaders don’t really understand economics, and they think you can pick and choose the parts of an economic system that you like while leaving the “bad parts” (the parts that don’t benefit our benevolent rulers) on the table. So we get MMT inflationary printing with military Keynesianism and Austrian austerity.

None of these systems work if you only take a part of the system! Any of them would probably be viable, implemented properly with a good understanding and fine adjustments to account for reality, but you can’t mix and match!

[boringg]

MMT - it was a flash in the pan pre-COVID during the "capital is infinite / ZIRP" era. It was used as a political tool to justify increasing deficits/debt.

The challenge with this problem set is the timeline is tricky. At some point the bridge can only handle so much weight before it buckles and collapses but we don't know how strong the bridge is and we have no way of measuring it.

MMT is the equivalent of saying the bridge doesn't have to worry about physics because (a) we said so and that the (b) bridge hasn't broken yet so its fine. It is a bad economic philosophy.

[stfp]

I’m not economist but my impression when I learned about MMT is that it’s predicated on the idea that money isn’t like bridges at all. And is actually at this point of history a purely abstract model where “we said so” works. Meanwhile lots of people really believe a country can “run out of money” or whatever. You run out of trees, teachers and nurses, not money. Anyway what’s clear to me is that the metrics we picked like gdp or debt ratio or whatever aren’t helping us make good choices.

[boringg]

It is the epitome of hand wavy economic philosophy. If you think about the uber simplistic version of a credit card payment - now extrapolate to nation states where you have a myriad of debt types, debtors, swaps, much larger payments, longer timelines you can keep running your debt/deficit for a long time. However if you grossly outstrip your ability to pay at some point those incredibly complicated structures do buckle and trip the system. That the timeline is further than we thought doesn't mean it won't happen. MMT essentially says don't worry about it because it hasn't happened yet. We can spend our way out while trying to say our obligations are of little weight.

It's a garbage economic theory - strictly to justify greater spending from our politicians. In time it will be proven out to be a failure of human thinking - it is a siren call.

[bryanlarsen]

The epitome of hand wavy economic philosphy is thinking about the debt like a credit card.

[cucumber3732842]

The comment made it clear credit card was a reductive example and that the diversity of debt makes the overall situation unfathomably complex.

Your comment is likely in bad faith.

[bryanlarsen]

That comment also set up a clear straw man, I don't think the parent comment was in good faith either.

Thinking about debt like a credit card isn't reductive, it's just plain wrong.

[boringg]

Other individual already nailed the response in this thread - so it's not worth repeating. They made the astute observation that the credit card was a grossly simplified example pointing that debt compounds even if the system is opaque, messy and main varied timelines.

I will add to your comment that printing more money by the government makes the people less wealthy in terms of true wealth. It is not a solution to get you out of the woes of heavy debt load as you pitched.

That said it sounds like you are a proponent of MMT - instead of one off pithy remarks, can you put forward a defensible position?

[tptacek]

I don't think there are any MMT'ers in any position of influence on either side of the aisle (I mean, obviously, they'd be on the Democratic side of the aisle, but you get what I mean). Among serious actors there's a universal agreement that the Democratic party's fiscal policy was mismanaged --- it's not fair to blame the whole situation on them, the GOP did their part and so did the universe, but they had the controls when it mattered.

Nobody's going to make the mistake of blowing off inflation as an abstract concern again.

[ethbr1]

Every political system forgets its lessons (inflation, war, disease, food, housing, wealth inequality) until reality eventually slaps it in its face again.

[tptacek]

Sure, but time scales matter. Both sides (there will always be 2 under our structure) will inevitably forget how much voters absolutely hate inflation; that's how we get inflation. But it won't happen within the lifespan of the "MMT" fad; I think that lifespan may have already elapsed.

[spwa4]

Here's the real issue. Economic innovation only really happens when the government is spending big on some issue. That's at least half the reason war advances technology so fast. It's not like Ukrainians weren't able to figure out drones 5 years ago.

Stopping spending kills the economy. Which kills tax income. Which puts far more stringent limits on spending. Which reinforces the need to stop even more spending.

[watwut]

The parties were not symmetric on this issue. They were not symmetric in terms of actual behavior (as in how much debt each added when in government) nor in terms of rhetorics. For a start, Democratic party was acting mostly in centrist technocratic manner and rather then radical leftist manner you are implying.

It is really not necessary to knee jerk bothside everything.

[rayiner]

> The MMT folks think this is business as usual.

The MMT folks think that, when inflation gets high, you need to raise taxes to take money out of the economy. The fatal flaw in that is raising taxes is politically impossible.

[outside1234]

1/3 of the debt has come under Trump. This isn't political, it is just a fact.

He passed tax cuts (which are the real debt driver) that are just not sustainable. Without those, we have a reasonable debt to GDP ratio.

[goalieca]

Canada had very high taxes covering everything from income to sales and yet our debt is ballooning at the federal and provincial level.

Its like saying that uncle bob has a ton of credit card debt because he doesn’t make enough money and not because he spends too much.

[monooso]

Disclaimer: lay person, not American or Canadian.

Whilst I understand your point in isolation, I don't understand how it refutes GP.

AFAIK, the current US administration has cut spending on most things (the military and ICE being notable exceptions).

As such, the suggestion that the ballooning debt is due to tax cuts seems perfectly valid.

[KK7NIL]

And the other side would say that if we cut welfare spending we'd have a reasonable debt to GDP ratio.

It's very much political and it's a joke to pretend otherwise.

[bilbo0s]

This is kind of the point though.

Cutting welfare spending will get us no where. The majority components of the federal budget are Defense, SS/Medicare/Medicaid, and debt payments. Not the forestry service or what we commonly know as welfare. At this point, even cutting everything else to zero still lands us in deficit. (Unless taxes are raised.)

To be serious, we need to talk about what cuts are to be made to SS/Medicare/Medicaid and the military. But no one wants to have that discussion. So we throw out meaningless issues like welfare and the forestry service. We quibble around at the extreme edges, never addressing the central problems. That's the essence of the politics being discussed. Those politics make the issue impossible to fix.

I honestly don't know why it's so hard? I'd be totally willing to countenance the necessary cuts to the sacred cow programs at this point. Why is everyone so opposed to it?

[HumblyTossed]

> To be serious, we need to talk about what cuts are to be made to SS/Medicare/Medicaid...

To be serious, we need to talk about the funding of it, not the cutting of it. If we raise the cap, it gets more funding.

If we increase Medicare taxes and then go to a single payer system, it could be funded as well.

There is zero reason to have for-profit health insurance.

[thwarted]

> To be serious, we need to talk about what cuts are to be made to SS/Medicare/Medicaid and the military. But no one wants to have that discussion

The military-industrialist complex is a socialist jobs program.

[alkonaut]

Yes "If" spending is cut or "If" taxes are not cut then you might have a balance.

But just implement balanced budget goals. Accept at most a deficit of 1% in the budget or whatever. Allow for a deviation from this to do QE but require a more qualified majority and limit to 1 year only.

Want to cut taxes? Fine - but don't do it with deficit spending. Want to increase welfare spending? Fine - but remember to then cut somewhere else OR increase taxes.

The fact that one side can implement large tax cuts funded by borrowing over and over (and still be elected again) is absolutely _crazy_ on a scale that is perhaps only rivaled by the healthcare system.

[watwut]

They can say that, but it will not be true. The tax cuts, plus new military spending and new ICE spending dwarf welfare they want to cut.

[solid_fuel]

Plus however many billions to bomb Iran and another 400 million for that stupid ballroom, the mad king's spending is out of control.

[bilbo0s]

This.

ICE is now larger and more expensive than the entire United States Marine Corps.

Let that sink in.

Not only that, we also seem to start a new war every 6 months. Demanding money for each one of them. SS/Pensions/Medicare seem to trend nowhere but up. And like Santa Claus the party in power keeps handing out tax cuts.

We have to make a change guys. The old ways aren't working. We can't be distracting from the central problems by yelling "welfare!". That doesn't work anymore.

[outside1234]

The only things that we can cut that will have any real effect on the deficit are Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and Defense.

You can see this here: https://www.pgpf.org/article/chart-pack-the-us-budget/

[solid_fuel]

And if I didn't quit my job, I'd still be able to pay rent. Oh no, whatever is there to do in this situation?

You can play the twisty game but the fact is simple - if he didn't have the political capital to cut spending, then cutting taxes is irresponsible governance.

[impossiblefork]

Would have had, not have.

[Zigurd]

You don't have to speculatively both sides the issue. There is a track record: https://amarkfoundation.org/reports/u-s-presidents-and-the-f...

Some of this is political, but Trump especially wildly makes a mockery of Republican supposed deficit hawkishness, not based on ideology, but by lack of a competent cabinet.

[goalieca]

curious question as a canadian. when our prime minister makes a budget, it really is his fault. He runs parliament and executive functions. The budget in the USA is supposed to be a congressional matter so why does the president get any blame?

[krapp]

The Executive is the most visible branch of the US government and it lends itself to celebrity worship and cult of personality, being embodied in a single person. Most Americans can't name their representatives at any level but everyone knows who the President is.

And like a CEO, the President tends to get credit for everything.

[Henchman21]

That is an issue, I agree. I think a larger issue is that the people in Congress are for the most part spoiled children. They're "cliquey" the way schoolkids are. Their politics is essentially "yelling across the playground at each other". Their entire existence is simply begging people for money on social media or "winning points" on ... you guessed it ... social media.

These aren't serious people. The institution itself is damaged beyond all belief by this nonsense. We capped the number of seats in the house because ... we ran out of room for seats? Again, not serious people, not leaders. Spoiled children who sit on top of a hill deciding the outcome of our lives like they're toys.

We need to begin again.

[gwbas1c]

The Freakonomics podcast episode "Ten Myths About the U.S. Tax System (Update)" actually goes into a lot of depth about this issue: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/ten-myths-about-the-u-s-tax... (Includes transcript)

To oversimplify, basically:

With the exception of Social Security, we (the US) has a balanced budget. No politician will get re-elected if they cut social security. (Thus) the politicians are working on the problem very quietly.

The general problem with Social Security is that it pays out way more then it takes in. Part of the issue is that everybody of retirement age collects social security, including multi-millionaires.

[MyHonestOpinon]

The problem with multi-millionares is not that they collect. It is that they do not pay as much as they could/should.

[setr]

I’ll read that article later, but that doesn’t sound right — there can’t be so many multi-millionaires that them getting free money is stressing out the system.

Quick random googling, I’m seeing the number 3.2% of retirees have more than $1m

https://www.investopedia.com/how-many-people-really-achieve-...

And I can’t imagine social security would become suddenly profitable by a <3% population delta

[MyHonestOpinon]

Furthermore, multi-millionares have at least 2 million so they are significantly less than 3%.

[nyc_pizzadev]

Social security is self funded and is actually a buyer of US debt. So there is no direct connection between social security shortfalls and US gross federal debt.

[amluto]

To be slightly fair to the parent comment, it seems at least a bit valid to choose whether to consider the social security tax to be revenue to the government and social security payments an expense or to treat them as an entirely separate account. And the social security tax structure at least appears to be quite regressive.

As an analogy: do you think that Costco generates most of its profits from sales of goods or from membership fees? Both answers seem valid.

[dh2022]

social security revenues / payments are not included in this metric (US Debt). Social Security is its own huge problem which is different than the US Debt problem.

[alkonaut]

> > I really need some politics-free scholarship

> The Freakonomics podcast

Yikes.

[miltonlost]

Austrian school is less an academic discipline or study of economics and more a post-hoc justification for libertarian philosophy. So you can freely ignore them.

Maybe decide if the right or left has better priorities. Do you think spending money on guns and war like the right is good? Do you think spending money on social programs to be good? Seems like an easy decision to me, but hey, i have empathy and don't like killing.

[silenced_sage]

The problem isn't politics, its been made to look that way but the issue is that the people who would know have been silenced in a way that the general public hasn't recognized. Its not in the benefit of the corporate overlords that you be properly educated on this.

I'll give you a brief TL;DR on the issues.

The wealth of a nation is based in its ability to produce primarily goods, and sometimes services. Pricing is a signaling mechanism that allows efficient resource allocation of both goods, and factor market labor.

When misallocation results, you get things like busts and booms where the benefits are front-loaded and a resource exhaustion cycle takes place. There are constraints which cannot be breached for any length of time, such as wages being lower than the cost of living enough to support a wife and three children to 18, and other things. Legitimate business can't operate if it can't make a profit.

There is silently nationalized industry that is unconstrained via a cycle of money-printing that has sieved assets into few hands, and risk concentrated in few hands. This is part of the danger of the ECP, and other fundamental failures related to centralized systems.

The Austrian school lives in the future. The future under a breakdown of organized society is one of death and potentially extinction. We depend on food production in ecological overshoot which depends on technology and farming. The 1970s represented ecological overshoot. When that fails you get shortage, that then sustains, famine, slavery, death, and then extinction.

Under socio-economic collapse everything fails. Currency is abandoned. Exchange cannot happen. The store of value and exchange of value fails. This happened during the Bronze Age (of which we have very little records that remain).

If these happen for extended periods of time, capital dries up and you get something like the great depression, Nintendo, and other places where logistics refuses to deliver goods at any potential profit because they were burned too many times.

There exist systems that will fail eventually and predictably (in general), but which you cannot predict specifically when those failures will happen, its unknowable, and the effects one would use to justify any decision lag behind the objective indicators of the actions that needed to be avoided.

Money-printing extracts value from those that hold the currency through the cantillion effect. Its an extraction of unpaid slave labor. Eventually it exceeds the store of value, and the businesses that normally produce stop producing. Exchange stops, etc. AI presents a unique spin on this as well because it accelerates the corruption of signalling presenting false signals chaotically in both labor and good markets.

In positive feedback systems, these type of systems commonly run-away and converge at a point of calamity. When they do the dynamics are unstoppable.

The MMT folks are delusional, having rested quite a lot of their false justifications on unsound practice to justify extraction of value.

The Keynesian's aren't so different from the MMT folks because they improperly look at certain things only in isolation with a seeming mental block to all other things, which is a form of false justification.

The bankers (if you can call them that) have corrupted leadership, and enabled sieving through non-reserve debt issuance. The mechanism over the years is leveraged buyout. The business cycle today largely runs on the ponzi cycle with debt issued upfront providing benefits upfront, followed by enshittification as the resource exhaustion cycle runs its course.

Chaos is fundamentally destructive. Large societies don't implode when they have stable stores of value, a rule of law (not by law), and manufacture goods their populace needs.

Market dynamics fundamentally fail to operate as a market under slave labor as a function of the cost function for the majority of participants. It doesn't matter if that labor is provided by a foreign power with costs socialized, or stolen through the currency through deficit spending. When you cannot know correct prices, everything falls apart at fundamental levels but you don't see it until its too late after which point the only thing you can do is start over; but existing structures under such systems seek control to the point of extinction.

No one gives power up willingly, and those that have it seek to destroy the ability for others to take it.

You can't ever make a consensus when a good portion of the people part of that consensus have become delusional, often without them even realizing it.