[hmokiguess]

The nice thing about open protocols is that we don't have to endorse or use one implementation over another, yet, somehow, the browser monopoly continues to be a standing dilemma.

There are nice projects, like ungoogled chromium, tor, and many more, but I find the biggest issue is that there isn't a voice out there for the average person and a project that connects with the masses.

I think another issue is that a lot of the uninformed users have a strong apathy for the causes and ways the message is delivered, they rather engage and connect with things that are "fun" and want less friction rather than freedom and control.

How do we solve this? How do we make the browser ours, by the people, and for the people?

Sorry, I'm just sad whenever I think of this.

[Joe_Cool]

It's somehow even worse when you compile your own browser. Want Spotify or Netflix? You need Widevine with attestation. Go pay Google.

Your Browser Agent string isn't Chrome or Firefox? Enjoy endless Cloudflare captchas or just a 403 error.

[wavemode]

> Your Browser Agent string isn't Chrome or Firefox?

nowadays, you could update this to just "your browser agent string isn't Chrome"

[codedokode]

Yes, how sovereign national browsers (not depending on US companies and not sending data to US) can be be developed in this situation?

[charcircuit]

As the browser you do not have to license Widevine. This is the responsibility of your OS vendor to provide and license a DRM solution. So for example when you build your browser on Mac it uses the Apple APIs to use FairPlay to handle Spotify.

It's unrealistic to expect every app on the system to have to deal with licensing DRM themselves.

[pjmlp]

We start by not shipping Chrome with "native" applications instead of learning the platform APIs.

Followed by creating Web applications based on Web standards, instead of whatever Chrome does, and then complain about Firefox and Safari not being up to the game.

[franga2000]

I really don't see how Electron is connected here. When you're an Electron app, you really don't have to care about which web APIs Chrome implements, you can just use the native NodeJS equivalents, which will usually give you a better UX anyways.

But absolutely on the second point. A standard with one implementation is not a standard. Regardless of market share, in a market with three providers, if two out of three don't support something, you have no business using it. It unhealthy for everyone involved.

[pjmlp]

Electron is Chrome packaged with the application.

If those devs cared about Web standards, it would be a pure Web application, or an headless executable, system/daemon conecting to the system's browser.

[franga2000]

I'm not saying the Electron UX is better than a native app. I'm saying Electron apps using NodeJS libs have better UX to Electron apps using Web APIs. At best there's no difference for the user, but at worst, they get permission popups and limited access just like they would in a browser.

This is why Electron app devs prefer NodeJS libs to Web APIs and consequently have no impact on the adoption of a large chunk of the new Web APIs (not counting DOM and CSS things because those are rarely controversial and usually broadly implemented).

So yes, those devs don't care about these kinds of new web "standards", because they don't work with them. The people who use them are the ones who are dangerous and that's almost exclusively web app authors, because they can't just pull in a native library to do the same things.

[pjmlp]

Which browser engine uses V8?

[matheusmoreira]

> How do we solve this? How do we make the browser ours, by the people, and for the people?

Simple. Break up all the big tech corporations via anti-trust legislation. They are the robber barons of our time.

[jedimastert]

> How do we solve this? How do we make the browser ours, by the people, and for the people?

Unfortunately, the answer is pretty much always "real public funding"

[pessimizer]

The problem is that if there were one, it would be subverted by powerful people with enormous amounts of cash to throw around. Firefox was the people's browser, then it suddenly wasn't.

If you were some paragon of integrity with a ton of money, developed everything yourself, and refused all corruption, you would be called the Russian Chinese terrorist child-porn browser, denounced in Congress, and eventually arrested (then released) during a layover in Germany.

Google would send an opinion to the court vaguely supporting the prosecution but disguised as technical advice; Firefox would pretend they never heard of you or what is happening, and delete all mention of you when posted in comments or on their social media. Ubuntu and Fedora would remove you from their repositories, Apple and Android never allowed you in their stores in the first place. The NYT would do a story about your "shadowy origins" and ask whether a reasonable country should allow a company so unwilling to work with the government or selected nonprofits to be an intermediary between their children and a dangerous internet. Fox would call you an Islamo-Communist anti-Semite, and somehow also associate you with the "alt-right," Dr. Fauci, and "environmental whackos."

After two years, and the banning of your project by most companies and websites, and the contrived failure of other companies simply associated with you but unrelated to the browser, the charges will be dropped. The bans will still be there, and where they are gone, people will informally stick to them. People will not feel like they can put your company on their resume. Any casual mention of you on the social internet will inspire at least a half-dozen hate comments, and FOSS projects will be attacked for ever having mentioned you positively.

If you aren't a paragon, you sell out after the NYT story.

The reason there are monopolies is because they are enforced.

[hmokiguess]

I guess one real life example is maybe Bitcoin? Would you say it managed to do that in finance successfully to some extent.

[direwolf20]

Bitcoin was subverted by powerful people and is no longer the people's currency.

[hmokiguess]

So the system is rigged eh?

[armchairhacker]

You have a decent browser. The average person has Chrome. Those who do care switch to the former. What needs to be solved?

> voice out there for the average person and a project that connects with the masses

> they rather engage and connect with things that are "fun" and want less friction rather than freedom and control

Do you see the contradiction? The average person "connects with" less friction rather than control.

[hmokiguess]

I understand what you’re saying, though there’s a quote that hurts me whenever I try and reason about it this way, which is:

"We must all fear evil men, but there is another kind of evil, which we must fear most, and that is, the indifference of good men”

[armchairhacker]

You don't have to be indifferent. I think making GNU etc. more accessible for the person who is average except that they prefer control is noble.

[ilaksh]

https://github.com/runvnc/tersenet