[AstroBen]

So much of Apple's growth is anti-consumer.

You can't repair your device.

They're intently focused on locking you in as much as possible, making it hard to leave, and not by making such a good product.

They try their best to force app developers to pay them their 30% tax, even when the devs brought the customers in from elsewhere.

They, for so long, refused to support RCS and downgraded the messaging experience with android.

They were trying to intentionally downgrade SPAs so people again need to go through their app store.

Anything I missed?

They make good hardware, yes, but I can't support them as a company.

[CWuestefeld]

Anything I missed?

Under Jobs, UX was king. Devices had to be intuitive, and features discoverable. Today, all that user-friendliness is gone. The devices are no longer approachable for a newbie: you have to just know how to use them.

[MoonWalk]

Yep. The secret "gestures," the peek-a-boo UI, and now "transparent" UI that overlaps other junk on the screen.

It's not even consistent with itself. Example: On iOS, bring up the list of open pages in Safari; each thumbnail has an X in the corner to close it. Pretty intuitive and standard. But now bring up the list of apps running on your phone. There's nothing. No X or other affordance. Who the hell would guess he has to flip the thumbnail up off the top of the screen to quit the application? You've probably forgotten how stupid this is, but that's just complacency for hideous design setting in.

[jshier]

Except Jobs approved the design of that screen, which hasn't fundamentally changed since early versions of iOS (iPhoneOS). And it's that way because quitting apps isn't supposed to be something you do very often, if at all. Nowadays people clear the app history by habit, but it was really only supposed to be for misbehaving apps that were burning your battery, so having an affordance to make it easy was never the point, despite how people use it today.

Also, please stop doing this, it breaks apps. It's unnecessary and just forces your apps to cold launch every time you use them.

[MoonWalk]

Steve Jobs opposed the idea of real applications on the iPhone in the first place. And Jobs also personally insisted that stuff be misspelled in the iTunes UI... if you believe the pushback in the bug report on it. So who cares if he approved another bad idea?

Quitting apps is something you need to do sometimes. And making it impossible to do, through obscurity, is stupid; as that can leave the application permanently disabled. This is not something I ever want as a developer.

Not to mention that people who don't need to quit an application won't go hunting for a way to do so, and thus the problem solves itself. That's why the vast majority of arguments for crippling things to shield users from "scary complexity" fail: Novice users will not even imagine that these functions are available, let alone go hunting for them.

And I quit apps BECAUSE I want them to "cold launch" next time. But my mom isn't ever going to do that. So rest easy: Your glass-jawed app is safe from the general public.

[moepstar]

> Except Jobs approved the design of that screen

..which they, as far as i recall, pretty much stole from WebOS back then..

(well, the functionality aspect of it at least)

[threatofrain]

That's not Apple, that's just current design trends everywhere. Jobs was popularizing UX idioms for yet-new hardware to the customer. Now we live in a world where children grow up with tablets.

If you go to Google's design you're not going to see an alternative take from the same playground of design, plus or minus some glassiness, emoji, bounce, etc.

[tempodox]

> Anything I missed?

The constantly sinking level of software quality. They make excellent hardware ruined by crappy software.

[FeloniousHam]

Crappy? I use MacOS everyday, and it's a goddamn delight compared to the (perfectly reasonable) experience of Windows 11 + WSL. Anything that doesn't "just work" was replaced by very thoughtfully written third party software a long time ago.

Yeah, like you I lived in Linux for years and delighted in the freedom to recompile my video driver with every upgrade, but then I had kids, and a life to live, and found that accepting some limitations of the excellent OSX was a worthwhile tradeoff. Today I couldn't tell you what I'm missing that can't be fixed with a 30s Google + `brew install`.

And complaints about default choices, or limitations with easy work arounds, on Hacker News are just weird. No one typing on this message board runs default anything.

Please share specific (legitimate) gripes and win my sympathy.

[FireBeyond]

Photos.

Take a photo on your iPhone and wait for it to sync on your Mac. You might get lucky and it syncs nearly immediately (which is still typically a minute or so, even if your phone and Mac are on the same network and have gigabit internet). But you won't know when. And it might not be immediate.

Both sides will tell you they're up to date. You can't force a sync. They'll be synced when Photos is ready, not you. And if that's ten minutes or more later? So be it. You'll just deal with it.

[hyperhello]

This is a very good example of a disruptive bug that destroys the ability to work. I’m making a document on my laptop and using the phone as a camera to take pictures, I am working on, now. Same WiFi, same person, same cloud, inches apart. No work.

[bdangubic]

airdrop that :) (I do the same all the time and always airdrop from phone to my laptop after taking a pic)

[hyperhello]

No. Fix the problem.

[MoonWalk]

Saying that it sucks less than the execrable mess that is Windows doesn't prove anything.

Apple appears to be chasing Microsoft down the toilet. Its exhumation of the circa-2002 "transparent" UI fad is one example, coupled with other baffling UI regressions.

Mac OS examples: Apple removed the "get new mail" button from the Mail toolbar. So all those millions of people who log into their bank accounts and are told to check their mail for 2FA are left hunting for it or simply waiting for Mail's next poll. There's no excuse for removing one of the most-used buttons from a sparsely-populated toolbar. What is driving this attack on usefulness? It used to be Jony Ive.

Then take a look at Music. Apple moved the playback controls from the empty area at the top of the screen to the bottom of the content browser, and made them "transparent." Now they overlap and blend with the thumbnails and text in the content browser.

Garbage like this is scattered all over the UI now. I needn't beat the dead horse of the hated System Preferences panel here.

Meanwhile, Spotlight still doesn't show you WHERE it found stuff, and neither does the inappropriately-named Finder. "Location" or "path" isn't even an OPTION in the column headers you can add to the results list. So you can't discriminate between identically-named files or irrelevant volumes or backups as you scan the list to find what you're looking for, or sort by location.

The removal of Launchpad is another blunder. Apple didn't even replace it with anything. So now you have no comparable way to group your applications.

"Center Stage" is a profoundly defective POS that ruins my family's weekly Zooms by randomly swooping the camera view around and cropping one of my parents out, when they're sitting side by side. Utter trash that there's no universal way to disable, shoved on all users by default without permission. That's Apple today.

[FeloniousHam]

> Apple appears to be chasing Microsoft down the toilet. Its exhumation of the circa-2002 "transparent" UI fad is one example, coupled with other baffling UI regressions.

Windows 11 is perfectly cromulent. I don't prefer it, but with WSL, it's like a slow almost-MacOS. The anger over the transparency is I guess personal, I genuinely don't notice it. I certainly haven't stumbled over it. (I might have changed a setting?)

> Then take a look at Music. Apple moved the playback controls from the empty area at the top of the screen to the bottom of the content browser, and made them "transparent." Now they overlap and blend with the thumbnails and text in the content browser.

I just hit Play and the music comes on. I'm not crazy about their search, but it's not that big a deal. The Podcasts app now... THAT is a complaint I can get behind. I would use something else but for the integration with the car.

> Spotlight and Launchpad

Spotlight seems good enough to me. I tried Alfred and Raycast, but never used any of the helper functionalities. Just used it to open apps and files.

I never used Launchpad. I do forget the names of apps, but I just open Applications.

>"Center Stage" is a profoundly defective POS

https://www.reddit.com/r/Zoom/comments/1i0j9db/how_do_i_disa...

I do appreciate that your list is specific, but I think these complaints fall well short of "crappy" :).

[somebehemoth]

I am a long time mac user and I agree with all of their points. I guess you disagree, but I am not sure why you are being dismissive. Each point is a legitimate criticism from many peoples' points of view.

[FeloniousHam]

I acknowledge the complaints, I love a good complaint! My issue is that these superficial, and in many cases, easily remediable annoyances add up to a "crappy OS". MacOS has to satisfy a very diverse userbase from Paris Hilton-types to grumpy Hacker News readers (but thankfully not Bank of America), and I think they do a better than decent job at it.

Also: I don't use Mail.app.

[cholantesh]

Not as weird as this really persistent delusion that Linux is anywhere as user-hostile in 2026 as it was in the early noughts.

[FeloniousHam]

It has been a while. And I should say when I stuck to distro-tested options, I didn't have many issues. But I always ended up installing and configuring things that ended up causing conflictions, and all too often did clean installs instead of in-place upgrades.

[SanjayMehta]

Cook made sure that the iPhone's battery replacement cost was so high that an upgrade would be more viable. His innovation was to extend that to MacBooks.

[moffers]

I think maybe part of the argument is that Apple’s closed system was a benevolent dictator-style ecosystem that was actually benevolent. Until it wasn’t.

[infecto]

You might find that you are in the minority though. Nothing wrong with this at all but apple makes some of the best selling products in the market place and that has largely been because of Tim Cook.

[wesselbindt]

Nothing you say is in disagreement with the comment you're responding to. And yeah, Apple is doing really well, in part because of their anti competitive practices. Good for them, bad for us.

These responses talking about Apple's bottom line kind of feel like this convo:

> Cigarettes are bad, they cause cancer. Philip Morris shouldn't be selling them

> Yeah but they sell so many cigarettes! Isn't that great?

[infecto]

How did we jump to cigarettes?

I don’t think any of the original articles complaints are wrong but I don’t agree with the thesis. They are one of the best selling device manufacturers because the product and ecosystem is so good. My point was that folks, maybe like yourself, who don’t find the ecosystem open enough or the devices repairable enough, are outliers compared to the average consumer.

[wesselbindt]

> How did we jump to cigarettes?

Oh, it's an analogy. This is a frequently used rhetorical device where you take a similar analogous setup (maybe hypothetical) to elucidate certain aspects of a situation you're considering.

[mandeepj]

> developers to pay them their 30% tax

There are provisions for 15%

[ch4s3]

You can easily see a totally different perspective on all of these if you try a little.

> You can't repair your device.

Everything is increasingly integrated for dust/water proofing, components are integrated to reduce the power envelope and push performance. Repairability is the tradeoff.

> They're intently focused on locking you in as much as possible

All of their products and services are tightly integrated and have privileged access to hardware that would be insecure to open to 3rd parties.

> They try their best to force app developers to pay them their 30% tax, even when the devs brought the customers in from elsewhere.

If you want to list on their marketplace it's not unreasonable to expect to pay for access. We can haggle on the fairness of 30%

> They, for so long, refused to support RCS and downgraded the messaging experience with android.

As a consumer I just can't possibly be made to care about this.

> They were trying to intentionally downgrade SPAs so people again need to go through their app store.

SPAs perform poorly and eat battery life and have super heterogeneous user experiences, I don't want them on my phone.

As a consumer I like that they don't open the gates on the phone ecosystem to all of the absolute slop we see on android.

[FireBeyond]

> > You can't repair your device.

> Everything is increasingly integrated for dust/water proofing, components are integrated to reduce the power envelope and push performance. Repairability is the tradeoff.

This is a fair point. But when I hear "you can't repair your device" I also think "you can't take it to someone of your choice to repair", which is often true, too, even though that limitation is artificial - witness the Rossmans and others of the world who can absolutely repair these devices. There's a whole YouTube channel of a guy who makes ASMR videos of him doing things like removing iPhone/iPad/MBP storage and replacing it with large capacity chips.

[ch4s3]

> I also think "you can't take it to someone of your choice to repair", which is often true, too, even though that limitation is artificial

This I think is a fair enough criticism. Screen and battery replacement by 3rd party professionals should be easier. Both of these things would tackle the biggest reasons that iPhones become useless before Apple drops OS support which is quite long compared to Android OEMs.

[ryandvm]

>> They, for so long, refused to support RCS and downgraded the messaging experience with android.

>As a consumer I just can't possibly be made to care about this.

Not caring that you are not able to effectively use your *telecommunications device* with people that buy a different brand of telecommunications device is wild. Kool Aid is a helluva drug.

[mschuster91]

Who the hell gives a flying fuck about RCS? RCS is bullshit pushed by carriers praying they can get a sliver of marketshare back from Whatsapp, Telegram and Signal when it comes to text communications.

Carriers have been reduced to dumb data pipes and they haven't figured out how to live in a reality where the only thing that matters is service quality and price.

[maleldil]

Anyone who wants to communicate cross-OS and doesn't want to use a whole separate application for it, when it should be a basic capability of the phone?

[mschuster91]

SMS and MMS are still a thing and I don't know anyone not having at least one of the three apps, add Threema to the mix for the nerds and that's it.

[dd8601fn]

You might want to read up on what happened with the dumpster fire that’s vaguely called RCS before you go laying that at Apples feet.

Also Apples cut is 15% unless you’re doing millions in revenue. Same as Google.

[jshier]

Unlike Google, Apple makes you jump through the hoops of their small business program, if it's available, before they'll drop it to 15%, otherwise you're stuck at 30.

[dd8601fn]

It’s like “fill out your name and tell them you made less than a million dollars last year.”