[keeda]

I think it's more accurate to say it is a process that has resulted in our high standard of living faster than other processes... so far.

There is no guarantee it will keep working for the majority of us going forward; as is becoming very clear all around the world, it also has downsides especially without checks and balances (which was predicted and observed in the past, which is why other processes were conceptualized in the first place!)

As a trivial example, profit maximization is directly responsible for the enshittification we're seeing everywhere, which definitely is negatively impacting our standard of living.

[WalterBright]

> I think it's more accurate to say it is a process that has resulted in our high standard of living faster than other processes... so far.

Nobody has found a better process. Not even close.

> As a trivial example

It's not an example, it's a generalization. If you have a specific example, let's have a look at it!

Have you ever wondered why communist countries never exported products?

Also, if you want better products and believe people will want to buy them, go into business making them and make yourself wealthy!

[keeda]

> Nobody has found a better process. Not even close.

Maybe, but as they say, "Past Performance Is Not Indicative of Future Results." The point was, this process may work up to a point, then it may work more against the interests of the population.

I mean, history is already littered with examples of the downsides of this process, like all the rampant anti-worker things profit maximizers tried to get away with that had to be fought literally with blood. Without that bloodshed it is highly likely the average standards of living of the general population would be much, much lower.

You don't even have to look at history, the process is literally playing out right now in various countries.

> It's not an example, it's a generalization. If you have a specific example, let's have a look at it!

I thought enshittification was a pretty specific example? You can find the many articles written about the various ways things are degrading on the Internet with a Google search (the experience of which is probably an even more specific example in itself ;-))

I chose that example because I think it's a microcosm of this process: in the beginning, the profit motive creates great innovation and products. But at some point, like when the market is saturated or monopolized, the profit incentive creates anti-consumer dynamics because companies turn to extractive methods rather than innovative ones.

[contingencies]

Your line of reasoning misses the clear example that China pulled 1.4 billion people out of poverty creating mass-literacy before embracing capitalism.

[WalterBright]

The Chinese did not come out of poverty until after China switched to capitalism.

[contingencies]

This big beautiful claim does not match my first hand observations.

[applied_heat]

They certainly turned away from socialism and towards capitalism though, I think as part of embracing capitalism. What parts of the economy are not capitalist? State owned companies? In Canada and the US there are many protected or subsidized companies as well. Genuinely curious on the differences on owning a company in China vs canada

Thanks

[pigeons]

Ask Jack Ma.

[striking]

Which country experiencing communism at any point in time didn't export any products?

[WalterBright]

The Soviet Union.

I don't recall ever seeing USSR products in stores, while plenty of manufactured goods from other countries were. (By products I meant manufactured products, not extracted resources like oil.)

[AngryData]

I got some Soviet Union produced wrenches and drill from my great grandfather and East Germany made drill bits from an auction despite nobody in my family living outside the US in 120 years. No it isn't common, but I wouldn't expect the Soviet Union's biggest rival to be importing many of their products to start with, so the fact I possess them at all is decent evidence of their significant production volume.

[WalterBright]

But no cars, washing machines, microwaves, electronics, furniture, apparel, and on and on. Kinda sad for the size of the country.

I bought some Soviet stuff after the fall of the USSR, because it was unique and interesting. One item was a telescope, one was a brand new rotary dial telephone manufactured in the 1950s, and one was a mechanical clock reputed to be from a submarine.

I'm only sad that I abandoned my phone line (as I only received spam calls on it) and so my Commie Phone is a nice, but useless, desk ornament.

[lesostep]

>> no cars

actually there was car export. Google "britain lada". I also remember some south american countries having cars from USSR. Cars were mostly exported to countries that didn't have car production.

>> electronics, furniture, apparel

There was a lot of trade going on, but in most countries local electronics and apparel was the better option.

You have to understand, the economy wasn't that global at the time. A lot of countries had american knick-knacks mostly because american soldiers brought it in and exchange it for local knick-knacks.

Most of the global trade was for materials.

[Yoric]

I did, so it probably depends of where you live.

[WalterBright]

What Soviet products did you see?

[Yoric]

I remember books (there was a famous soviet science publisher, which I believe we learned later had gulag deportees working on their printing presses) and I seem to recall toys and some foods.

My memory from the period is far from perfect, though, as I was a kid when the USSR collapsed.

[keeda]

I think that may have been a result of the political divide of that era. The USSR did export some machinery and arms, but those were traded largely within other Communist countries and "third world" countries.