[pierrekin]

There is something darkly comical about using an LLM to write up your “a coding agent deleted our production database” Twitter post.

On another note, I consider users asking a coding agent “why did you do that” to be illustrating a misunderstanding in the users mind about how the agent works. It doesn’t decide to do something and then do it, it just outputs text. Then again, anthropic has made so many changes that make it harder to see the context and thinking steps, maybe this is an attempt at clawing back that visibility.

[vidarh]

If you ask humans to explain why we did something, Sperry's split brain experiment gives reason to think you can't trust our accounts of why we did something either (his experiments showed the brain making up justifications for decisions it never made)

Bit it can still be useful, as long as you interpret it as "which stimuli most likely triggered the behaviour?" You can't trust it uncritically, but models do sometimes pinpoint useful things about how they were prompted.

[amluto]

Humans can do one thing that AI agents are 100% completely incapable of doing: being accountable for their actions.

[jumpconc]

You haven't met certain humans. Not all humans have internal capacity for accountability.

The real meaning of accountability is that you can fire one if you don't like how they work. Good news! You can fire an AI too.

[pessimizer]

Bad news! They will not be aware that you have done this and will not care.

[Zak]

The purpose of firing a person shouldn't be vengeance but to remove someone who is unreliable or not cost effective.

It's similarly reasonable to drop a tool that's unreliable, though I don't think that's a reasonable description here. Instead, they used a tool which is generally known to be unpredictable and failed to sandbox it adequately.

[bigstrat2003]

The purpose of firing a person is to remove someone unreliable, but also, the person having that skin in the game makes him behave more reliably. The latter is something you cannot do with an LLM.

The cold hard fact is: LLMs are an unreliable tool, and using them without checking their every action is extremely foolish.

[hun3]

But it's still a bit more difficult to sue them for leaking your company's data.

At least for now.

[unyttigfjelltol]

I disagree. They could fire Claude and their legal counsel could pursue claims (if there were any, idk)-- the accountability model is similar. Anthropic probably promised no particular outcome, but then what employee does?

And in the reverse, if a person makes a series of impulsive, damaging decisions, they probably will not be able to accurately explain why they did it, because neither the brain nor physiology are tuned to permit it.

Seems pretty much the same to me.

[yladiz]

> They could fire Claude and their legal counsel could pursue claims (if there were any, idk)-- the accountability model is similar.

What do you mean by fire? And how is the accountability similar to an employee?

[grey-area]

Don’t forget learning, humans can learn, LLMs do not learn, they are trained before use.

[HighGoldstein]

Do we? Or are we born with pre-training (all the crucial functions the brain does without us having to learn them) and a context window orders of magnitude larger than an LLM?

[compass_copium]

It is incredible how willing and eager AI boosters are to denigrate the incredible miracle of human consciousness to make their chatbots seem so special.

No, we are not born with all the pre-training we need. That is rather the point of education, teaching people's brains how to process information in new, maybe unintuitive ways.

[addedGone]

They learn on the next update :p

[grey-area]

That’s training, not learning.

[quantummagic]

Yup. And eventually there will be online learning, that doesn't require a formal update step. People keep conflating the current implementation, as an inherent feature.

[antonvs]

That’s a feature that other humans impose on whoever’s being held accountable. There’s no reason in principle we couldn’t do the same with agents.

[LPisGood]

How would you fire an agent? This impacts the company that makes the LLM, but not the agent itself.

[lmm]

What does that actually mean in practice? You can yell at human if it makes you feel better, sure, but you can do that with an AI agent too, and it's approximately as productive.

[jeremyccrane]

Yep.

[jayd16]

You might as well be asking a tape recorder why it said something. Why are we confusing the situation with non-nonsensical comparisons?

There is no internal monologue with which to have introspection (beyond what the AI companies choose to hide as a matter of UX or what have you). There is no "I was feeling upset when I said/did that" unless it's in the context.

There is no ghost in the machine that we cannot see before asking.

Even if a model is able to come up with a narrative, it's simply that. Looking at the log and telling you a story.

[vidarh]

Sperry's experiments makes it quite clear that the comparison is not nonsensical: humans can't reliably tell why we do things either. It is not imbuing AI with anything more to recognise that. Rather pointing out that when we seek to imply the gap is so huge we often overestimate our own abilities.

[fluoridation]

Humans at least have a mental state that only they are privy to to work from, and not just their words and actions. The LLM literally cannot possibly have a deeper insight into the root cause than the user, because it can only work from the information that the user has access to.

[lmm]

> Humans at least have a mental state that only they are privy to to work from

Maybe. How do you tell? What would you expect to be different if they didn't?

> The LLM literally cannot possibly have a deeper insight into the root cause than the user, because it can only work from the information that the user has access to.

Insight is not solely a function of available input information. Arguably being able to search and extract the relevant parts is a far more important part of having insights.

[fluoridation]

>Maybe. How do you tell? What would you expect to be different if they didn't?

I think you're asking how I would know if other people were P-zombies. That's an inappropriate question because I didn't talk about subjective experience, just about internal state. There's no question about whether other people have internal states. I can show someone a piece of information in such a way that only they see it and then ask them to prove that they know it such that I can be certain to an arbitrarily high degree that their report is correct.

Unvoiced thoughts are trickier to prove, but quite often they leave their mark in the person's voiced thoughts.

>Insight is not solely a function of available input information. Arguably being able to search and extract the relevant parts is a far more important part of having insights.

LLMs are notoriously bad at judging relevance. I've noticed quite often if you ask a somewhat vague question they try to cold-read you by throwing various guesses to see which one you latch onto. They're very bad at interpreting novel metaphors, for example.

[jayd16]

It is non-sensical because you're simply bringing in comparisons without anything linking the two. You might as well be talking about how oranges, and bicycles think as well as that is just as relevant as how humans think in this discussion.

In fact, talking about "thinking" at all is already the wrong direction to go down when trying to triage an incident like this. "Do not anthropomorphize the lawnmower" applies to AI as much as Larry Ellison.

[vidarh]

The thing linking the two is that neither are able to accurately introspect and explain the actual reason why they made a decision.

If thinking is the wrong direction to go down, then it is also the wrong direction to go down when talking about humans.

[jayd16]

If your plane fails to fly and humans can't fly then we should be looking at the musculature of humans when working on the plane?

[abcde666777]

Slight pushback - I think there's still a lot more consistency and coherence in a human's recollection of their motives than an LLM.

Sometimes I think we're too eager to compare ourselves to them.

[vidarh]

We have pretty much evidence to support that human recollection includes the right data to be able to ascertain why we actually did something.

[tempaccount5050]

I think you might be misinterpreting that. I always understood it to mean that when the two hemispheres can't communicate, they'll make things up about their unknowable motivations to basically keep consciousness in a sane state (avoiding a kernel panic?). I don't think it's clear that this happens when both hemispheres are able to communicate properly. At least, I don't think you can imply that this special case is applicable all the time.

[vidarh]

We have no reason to believe it is a special case. The fact that these patients largely functioned normally when you did not create a situation preventing the hemispheres from synchronising suggests otherwise to me. There's no reason to think the ability to just make things up and treat it as if it is truthful recollection would just disappear because there are two halves that can lie instead of just one.

[cmiles74]

None of the developers that I’ve worked with have had the hemispheres of their brains severed. I suspect this is pretty rare in the field.

[lmm]

> None of the developers that I’ve worked with have had the hemispheres of their brains severed.

But are their explanations for how they behaved any more compelling than those of people who have? If so, why?

[pixl97]

This still doesnt stop post ad hoc explanations by humans.

[tempaccount5050]

I feel like your conflating a deep misconfiguration of a brain with lying. These things are completely different.

[layer8]

The thing is, the LLM mostly just states what it did, and doesn't really explain it (other than "I didn't understand what I was doing before doing it. I didn't read Railway's docs on volume behavior across environments."). Humans are able of more introspection, and usually have more awareness of what leads them to do (or fail to do) things.

LLMs are lacking layers of awareness that humans have. I wonder if achieving comparable awareness in LLMs would require significantly more compute, and/or would significantly slow them down.

[vidarh]

Sperry's experiments suggests we don't have that awareness, but think we do as our brains will make up an explanation on the spot.

[pierrekin]

I agree that the model can help troubleshoot and debug itself.

I argue that the model has no access to its thoughts at the time.

Split brain experiments notwithstanding I believe that I can remember what my faulty assumptions were when I did something.

If you ask a model “why did you do that” it is literally not the same “brain instance” anymore and it can only create reasons retroactively based on whatever context it recorded (chain of thought for example).

[XenophileJKO]

Anthropic's introspection experiments have seemed to show that your argument is falsifiable.

https://www.anthropic.com/research/introspection

[sumeno]

> In fact, most of the time models fail to demonstrate introspection—they’re either unaware of their internal states or unable to report on them coherently.

You got the wrong takeaway from your link.

[XenophileJKO]

The parent said: "I argue that the model has no access to its thoughts at the time."

This is falsified by that study, showing that on the frontier models generalized introspection does exist. It isn't consistent, but is is provable.

"no access" vs. "limited access"

[sumeno]

There is no way for a user to know whether the LLM has introspection in a given case or not, and given that the answer is almost always no it is much better for everyone to assume that they do not have introspection.

You cannot trust that the model has introspection so for all intents and purposes for the end user it doesn't.

[dwheeler]

I would say "limited and unreliable access". What it says is the cause might be the cause, but it's not on any way certain.

[fragmede]

Claude code and codex both hide the Chain of Thought (CoT) but it's just words inside a set of <thinking> tags </thinking> and the agent within the same session has access to that plaintext.

[fc417fc802]

Those are just words inside arbitrary tags, they aren't actually thoughts. Think of it as asking the model to role play a human narrating his internal thought process. The exercise improves performance and can aid in human understanding of the final output but it isn't real.

[antonvs]

Why do you believe that humans have access to an “internal thought process”? I.e. what do you think is different about an agent’s narration of a thought process vs. a human’s?

I suspect you’re making assumptions that don’t hold up to scrutiny.

[fc417fc802]

I made no such claim and I don't understand what direct relevance you believe the human thought process has to the issue at hand.

You appear to be defaulting to the assumption that LLMs and humans have comparable thought processes. I don't think it's on me to provide evidence to the contrary but rather on you to provide evidence for such a seemingly extraordinary position.

For an example of a difference, consider that inserting arbitrary placeholder tokens into the output stream improves the quality of the final result. I don't know about you but if I simply repeat "banana banana banana" to myself my output quality doesn't magically increase.

[yladiz]

Are you legitimately arguing that humans don’t have an internal thought process in some way?

[lmm]

What would be different if it was "real"? What makes you think that when humans "narrate" "their" "internal thought process", it's any more "real"?

[fc417fc802]

I ask a human "predict what a mouse would do here". In an effort to understand why the prediction is sometimes wrong I ask "walk me through what the imaginary mouse is thinking". Upon examination I exclaim "aha! there's the error" but sadly it's not actually because the output prediction was not based on the thinking trace in any robust manner.

That's a loose analogy but it fails to fully illustrate the degree of decoupling here. For example the weirdness of LLM performance being increased via the output of empty sequences.

[jmalicki]

It does have access to its thoughts. This is literally what thinking models do. They write out thoughts to a scratch pad (which you can see!) and use that as part of the prompt.

[fc417fc802]

It's important to be aware that while those "thoughts" can be a useful aid for human understanding they don't seem to reliably reflect what's going on under the hood. There are various academic papers on the matter or you can closely inspect the traces of a more logically oriented question for yourself and spot impossible inconsistencies.

[mmoll]

It doesn’t mean that these “thoughts” influenced their final decision the way they would in humans. An LLM will tell you a lot of things it “considered” and its final output might still be completely independent of that.

[jmalicki]

Its output quite literally is not independent, as the "thinking tokens" are attended to by the attention mechanism.

[grey-area]

They do not in fact do that. The ‘thoughts’ are not a chain of logic.

[sumeno]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the model is doing. It's not your fault though, you're buying into the advertising of how it works

[eleumik]

Those are a funny progress bar made by a micro model , is just ui

[emp17344]

That is absolutely not what the split brain experiment reveals. Why would you take results received from observing the behavior of a highly damaged brain, and use them to predict the behavior of a healthy brain? Stop spreading misinformation.

[nuancebydefault]

Such 'highly damaged' brain is still 90 percent or more structured the same as a normal human brain. See it as a brain that runs in debug mode.

It is known that the narrative part of the brain is separate from the decision taking brain. If someone asks you, in a very convincing, persuasive way, why you did something a year ago and you can't clearly remember you did, it can happen that you become positive that you did so anyway. And then the mind just hallucinates a reason. That's a trait of brains.

[Jensson]

> If someone asks you, in a very convincing, persuasive way, why you did something a year ago and you can't clearly remember you did, it can happen that you become positive that you did so anyway. And then the mind just hallucinates a reason. That's a trait of brains.

Yes brains can hallucinate reasons, doesn't mean they always do. If all reasons given were hallucinations then introspection would be impossible, but clearly introspection do help people.

[vidarh]

Because said "highly damaged brain" in most respects still functions pretty much like a healthy one.

There is no misinformation in what I wrote.

[59nadir]

> a misunderstanding in the users mind about how the agent work

On top of that the agent is just doing what the LLM says to do, but somehow Opus is not brought up except as a parenthetical in this post. Sure, Cursor markets safety when they can't provide it but the model was the one that issued the tool call. If people like this think that their data will be safe if they just use the right agent with access to the same things they're in for a rude awakening.

From the article, apparently an instruction:

> "NEVER FUCKING GUESS!"

Guessing is literally the entire point, just guess tokens in sequence and something resembling coherent thought comes out.

[sieste]

Good point, it's like having an instruction "Never fucking output a token just because it's the one most likely to occur next!!1!"

[jeremyccrane]

That is actually pretty good, LLM's gonna LLM

[khazhoux]

> systemic failures across two heavily-marketed vendors that made this not only possible but inevitable.

> No confirmation step. No "type DELETE to confirm." No "this volume contains production data, are you sure?" No environment scoping. Nothing.

> The agent that made this call was Cursor running Anthropic's Claude Opus 4.6 — the flagship model. The most capable model in the industry. The most expensive tier. Not Composer, not Cursor's small/fast variant, not a cost-optimized auto-routed model. The flagship.

The tropes, the tropes!!

https://tropes.fyi/

[levlaz]

So if tropes.md works it doesn’t actually solve the problem. You’ll be reading stuff that you think an LLM didn’t write.

[NewsaHackO]

Twitter users get paid for these 'articles' based on engagement, correct? That may be the reason why it is so dramatized.

[dentemple]

It's one way for the company to make its money back, I guess.

[jeremyccrane]

Naw, we just want people to know. We followed all Cursor rules, thought we had protected all API keys, and trusted the backups of a heavily used infrastructure company. Cautionary tale sharing with others.

[iainmerrick]

It’s a good cautionary tale -- in hindsight the danger signs are clear, but it’s also clear why you thought it was OK and how third parties unfortunately let you down.

The “agent’s confession” is the least interesting and useful part of the whole saga. Nothing there helps to explain why the disaster happened or what kind of prompting might help avoid it.

The key mistake is accidentally giving the agent the API key, and the key letdown is the lack of capability scoping or backups in the service.

The main lessons I take are “don’t give LLMs the keys to prod” and “keep backups”. Oh, and “even if you think your setup is safe, double-check it!”

[GreenWatermelon]

No all that dramatization is just what LLMs belch out by default when told to tell a story.

[josephg]

> There is something darkly comical about using an LLM to write up

It feels like a modern greek tragedy. Man discovers LLMs are untrustworthy, then immediately uses an LLM as his mouthpiece.

Delicious!

[mtrifonov]

Yes, you're right, in that there's no decision module separate from the output. It overcommits in the other direction.

The post-hoc reasoning the model produces when you ask "why did you do that" is also just text, and yet that text often matches independent third-party analysis of the same behavior at well above chance. If it really were uncorrelated text-completion, the post-hoc explanation should not align with the actual causes more than randomly. It does, frequently enough that I've stopped using it as evidence the user is naive.

"just outputs text" is doing more work than we acknowledge. The person asking the agent "why did you do that" might be an idiot for expecting anything more than a post-hoc rationalization, but that's exactly what you'd expect from a human too.

[badgersnake]

Seems like they’ve already reached the point where they’ve forgotten how to think.

[razorbeamz]

> There is something darkly comical about using an LLM to write up your “a coding agent deleted our production database” Twitter post.

Which calls into question if this is even real.

[foota]

While I largely agree, it does raise the prospect of testing this iteratively. E.g., give a model some fake environment, prompt it random things until it does something "bad" in your fake environment, and then fix whatever it claims led to its taking that action.

If you can do this and reliably reduce the rate at which it does bad things, then you could reasonably claim that it is aware of meaningful introspection.

[jayd16]

Beyond that, isn't it just going to make up a narrative to fit what's in the prompt and context?

I don't think there's any special introspection that can be done even from a mechanical sense, is there? That is to say, asking any other model or a human to read what was done and explain why would give you just an accounting that is just as fictional.

[mike_hearn]

Not necessarily. The people saying that in this thread seem to be forgetting about the encrypted reasoning tokens. The why of a decision is often recorded in a part of the context window you can't see with modern models. If you ask a model, "why did you do that" it isn't necessarily going to make up a plausible answer - it can see the reasoning traces that led up to that decision and just summarize them.

[xnx]

On social media, a reasonable first assumption is that all content is written primarily for views/engagement. Any component of truth is incidental.

[xnx]

An LLM will reply with a plausible explanation of why someone would have written the code that it just wrote. Seems about the same.

[jeremyccrane]

Not some vibe coder, and AI agents can be incredibly powerful. But yes, the irony is not lost on us!

[joenot443]

Is there a reason you weren’t able to write the post yourself?

[alashow]

Vibe coder doesn't realize or denying he is a vibe coder, what other reason did you want

[gobdovan]

> asking a coding agent “why did you do that” to be illustrating a misunderstanding in the users mind about how the agent works

I think the same thing, but about agents in general. I am not saying that we humans are automata, but most of the time explanation diverges profoundly from motivation, since motivation is what generated our actions, while explanation is the process of observing our actions and giving ourselves, and others around us, plausible mechanics for what generated them.

[oofbey]

> It doesn’t decide to do something and then do it, it just outputs text.

We can debate philosophy and theory of mind (I’d rather not) but any reasonable coding agent totally DOES consider what it’s going to do before acting. Reasoning. Chain of thought. You can hide behind “it’s just autoregressively predicting the next token, not thinking” and pretend none of the intuition we have for human behavior apply to LLMs, but it’s self-limiting to do so. Many many of their behaviors mimic human behavior and the same mechanisms for controlling this kind of decision making apply to both humans and AI.

[pierrekin]

I suspect we are not describing the same thing.

When a human asks another human “why did you do X?”, the other human can of course attempt to recall the literal thoughts they had while they did X (which I would agree with you are quite analogous to the LLMs chain of thought).

But they can do something beyond that, which is to reason about why they may have the beliefs that they had.

“Why did you run that command?”

“Because I thought that the API key did not have access to the production system.”

When a human responds with this they are introspecting their own mind and trying to project into words the difference in understanding they had before and after.

Whereas for an agent it will happily include details that are not literally in its chain of thought as justifications for its decisions.

In this case, I would argue that it’s not actually doing the same thing humans do, it is creating a new plausible reason why an agent might do the thing that it itself did, but it no longer has access to its own internal “thought state” beyond what was recorded in the chain of thought.

[cortesoft]

> Whereas for an agent it will happily include details that are not literally in its chain of thought as justifications for its decisions.

Humans do this too, ALL THE TIME. We rationalize decisions after we make them, and truly believe that is why we made the decision. We do it for all sorts of reasons, from protecting our ego to simply needing to fill in gaps in our memory.

Honestly, I feel like asking an AI it’s train of thought for a decision is slightly more useful than asking a human (although not much more useful), since an LLM has a better ability to recreate a decision process than a human does (an LLM can choose to perfectly forget new information to recreate a previous decision).

Of course, I don’t think it is super useful for either humans or LLMs. Trying to get the human OR LLM to simply “think better next time” isn’t going to work. You need actual process changes.

This was a rule we always had at my company for any after incident learning reviews: Plan for a world where we are just as stupid tomorrow as we are today. In other words, the action item can’t be “be more careful next time”, because humans forget sometimes (just like LLMs). You will THINK you are being careful, but a detail slips your mind, or you misremember what situation you are in, or you didn’t realize the outside situation changed (e.g. you don’t realize you bumped the keyboard and now you are typing in another console window).

Instead, the safety improvements have to be about guardrails you put up, or mitigations you put in place to prevent disaster the NEXT time you fail to be as careful as you are trying to be.

Because there is always a next time.

Honestly, I think the biggest struggle we are having with LLMs is not knowing when to treat it like a normal computer program and when to treat it like a more human-like intelligence. We run across both issues all the time. We expect it to behave like a human when it doesn’t and then turn around and expect it to behave like a normal computer program when it doesn’t.

This is BRAND NEW territory, and we are going to make so many mistakes while we try to figure it out. We have to expect that if you want to use LLMs for useful things.

[iainmerrick]

Plan for a world where we are just as stupid tomorrow as we are today. In other words, the action item can’t be “be more careful next time”, because humans forget sometimes (just like LLMs).

That’s a great way of putting it, I’ll remember that one (except when I forget...)

[cortesoft]

I am pretty sure you will remember it during your next learning review… as soon as you get in that learning review, it is suddenly very easy to remember all the things you forgot to do.

[dinkumthinkum]

Humans don't do this all the time. I think you are conflating things to further this false idea that there is no distance between human thinking and the behavior of LLMs. The kind of rationalization humans sometimes do generally happens over a period of time. Humans are also not "rationalizing" their actions all the time. Also, when humans do what you call "rationalizing," it is to serve some kind of interest, beyond responding to a prompt.

[fragmede]

You're right, but having a backup older than computers.

[tredre3]

I agree with you a LLM is perfectly capable of explaining its actions.

However it cannot do so after the fact. If there's a reasoning trace it could extract a justification from it. But if there isn't, or if the reasoning trace makes no sense, then the LLM will just lie and make up reasons that sound about right.

[jmalicki]

So it is equal to what neuroscientists and psychologists have proven about human beings!

[efilife]

How was it proven?