[Matl]

The issue is that the way you're expected to criticize America from what I observed is along the lines of 'they mean well but...'

With China, you can say 'yeah, this is good, but they eat babies for fun' and it would mostly pass with people nodding along.

[juleiie]

Criticising America is nothing new or subversive. Hunter s Thompson was doing it all these years ago and much more interestingly and on point than anyone on here could.

Day every day the same unoriginal whining because it is hard to call it something as sophisticated as critique, can be heard all over the reddit.

While at the same time no one bothers to critique CCP to the same extent because we simply are not paid for doing this. No one is interested in non profit repeating the same facts about china every single day.

We are just content knowing that china is not some sort of “saviour” or alternative. It is an enemy of the free world. I try to not use things produced by my adversary to not fund my own doom.

[alfiedotwtf]

Ask people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Cuba, and Greenland if they think America is their saviour and in general do-gooder of the free world.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

Which people, exactly, are you asking?

"That same ice cream shop owner thanked me repeatedly for my help in invading and ultimately overthrowing Saddam Hussein’s regime in 2003. I told him that Canada didn’t take part in the invasion, but he didn’t care. Kurdish people were brutally persecuted by Saddam for over 30 years, and look back on the Saddam years with pure terror. The shop owner refused to take payment for the ice cream and offered that I stay with his family in their apartment upstairs."

https://goodperson.substack.com/p/notes-on-my-travels-in-ira...

In Afghanistan, you saw their desperate attempts to flee the country as the US withdrew. Nonetheless, it was necessary to reduce our warmongering and military footprint. Afghani women being forced into burqas is ultimately not our business.

In Venezuela, apparently, the main complaint is that Trump didn't go even further: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas...

In Cuba, on the subreddit, there is a discussion of Trump saying that "Cuba is next" (after Iran). A mod of the subreddit writes (translated): "I am in Cuba, and I would say that 95% of the people here—those I know or have spoken with—are reacting to this with hope. That is something that many people on the outside do not see." See link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/cuba/comments/1s5s1ip/trump_cuba_is...

And I'm sure you could find a few Greenlandic Inuit who are tired of Danish colonialism as well.

My point is that simply "asking people" is not a particularly reliable or effective method. It's much better to stay complicit, reduce military spending, and avoid being a warmonger.

[Matl]

> is not some sort of “saviour” or alternative. It is an enemy of the free world. I try to not use things produced by my adversary to not fund my own doom.

Are you aware that this is how America is increasingly perceived around the world?

It's not a 'free world' when America dictates and the others are supposed to just take orders.

May be you're fine with that, feeling on top of the food chain, but everyone needs friends at some point.

What does the 'free' in 'free world' even mean any more? You're not allowed to express your opinion on college campuses anymore, (lack of domestic freedom), and if you're a country, you're increasingly facing trade barriers from the US, (lack of freedom in commerce).

I'm not saying that as a sovereign country you don't have a right to impose these restrictions. I simply wish the US would treat other countries as sovereign.

[juleiie]

America is still a democracy. Its leaders may be vile today but they are bound to change. Unlike China.

I cannot condemn whole nation on the basis of two elections.

That’s the beauty of it all. In a democracy there are no irredeemable nations. There are just phases better or worse. China was always evil and cracked down on anyone who questioned power of highest leader.

If you think you are going to convince people that somehow an authoritarian state is preferable to a western liberal democracy in any way then you are foolish. Or paid by the state.

I love democracy and I love freedom. I will tirelessly work to oppose people like you until my last breath. That I swear.

All the disinformation, all the propaganda will be dispersed at the iron flank of NATO. You will never have this land. Europe is my home and it is free and free will remain till I breathe.

So I dare you commies, come here to Poland and try anything. We will crush you and you will see what red really looks like.

[Matl]

> America is still a democracy. Its leaders may be vile today but they are bound to change.

I disagree that it is a democracy. It's a corporatocracy and it's been for decades. But the elections are a nice PR.

The Trump thing of not having a PR filter over policies that were there long before him is just making people question whether system a.) is indeed better than system b.);

a.) Pseudo democracy where the will of corporations, but not people is implemented and that the people up for elections are so compromised by special interests by the time we get a choice that it doesn't matter anymore i.e. the US and most of the West.

b.) A system that does away with the spectacle of national elections, with the social contract being that the leadership better be competent and peruse national interests and development, but is not directly elected i.e. China. That competency is supposed to be ensured by only allowing people who have proven competence at lower levels, (some of which they are directly elected to).

There's a question about how sustainable either is. I would prefer a third option c.) where you can elect relatively competent leaders, but that doesn't seem to be an option these days.

What Trump is unquestionably doing however, is making a lot of fans of the idealized system of democracy c.) think that perhaps option b.) > a.) even if less than ideal.

Just because you call yourself a democracy doesn't mean you're one. Just ask citizens of the DRC.

[juleiie]

System B In America wouldn’t be better at all. It would be corrupt corporate authoritarian tendency becoming an established reality. It is not yet a reality. You should work to restore democracy not fantasize about falling deeper into authoritarian pit.

I don’t get you people. You whine about authoritarian tendencies of Trump and then you say that maybe an authoritarian system is better and you want authoritarian system? This is just insanity

That makes me think all these comments are just propaganda double speak

[Matl]

I am not American and you have misunderstood my point.

The point is that if you want to have the privileges of a global hegemon and go around the world and accuse others of being authoritarian governments i.e. China, then your shit better be close to exemplary counter to that. Otherwise people around the world might run out of patience with your shit.

Looking at both countries and what system the majority of the world would increasingly rather live under, IMO it would be option b.) not because they love authoritarianism, but because they want to live well and be as free as possible while doing so.

The US is increasingly authoritarian, (in China you may not be able to criticize Xi, in the US you cannot criticize Israel without consequences).

There's multiple ways one can be 'free'. The US seems to define freedom only in the narrow sense of being free from overt oppression for political opinions, but for many being free from economic insecurity is at least as, if not more, of an important freedom. The US does not offer that second freedom, but increasingly not even the first one.

In light of that, why should the people of the world tolerate US hegemony and not increasingly turn towards China?

[jicko]

I don't think people pointing out American hypocrisy are under a delusion that China is a saint. They're just pointing out the hypocrisy.

It's also a delusion to think that the world is free under US hegemony. It's mostly better for those who cooperate, and the incentives are good. But it's not "free". The only entity free to do whatever it wants under US hegemony, is the US.

The unoriginal whining is mostly about China or any country that isn't the US, really. Asia is unimaginative and can only copy. Europe is lazy, blah blah blah. Because Americans who can't take being told that their country isn't #1 in the morality olympics seem to also not know much about other countries at all.

Like look at all the whining about China being communist. It's fcking hilarious. They've been an authoritarian, state-run capitalist country for decades by now. Just google their social spending vs other countries, will you.

[andersonpico]

> Criticising America is nothing new or subversive. Hunter s Thompson was doing it all these years ago and much more interestingly and on point than anyone on here could.

The existence better critique out there is irrelevant if you don't take the argumentt in front of you on its strenghts.

> Day every day the same unoriginal whining because it is hard to call it something as sophisticated as critique, can be heard all over the reddit.

Criticism of a country with military bases across the whole world doesn't have to be hip to be correct. No one cares what you think about reddit or how hipster you like your political takes to be and this doesn't exempt you from having to argue about the concrete facts in a discussion forum.

> While at the same time no one bothers to critique CCP to the same extent because we simply are not paid for doing this. No one is interested in non profit repeating the same facts about china every single day.

You are so wrong about no one criticizing the CCP that's it's difficult to believe that this statement is sincere. Maybe I could attribute it to selection bias as you're on an american forum? There's also a cottage industry around anti-Chinese propaganda besides the western funded government propaganda machine that is in place for the last decades.

> We are just content knowing that china is not some sort of “saviour” or alternative.

Oh but they are! China is a concrete alternative for an economic partner for most parts of the world, but only if the US doesn't sponsor a military coup or invade your country in response. If they you can get away from Americans threats, China is also a more reliable partner with much more stable policies and much less likely to sabotage your elections, secretly pay your politics and judges and manipulate your markets.

> It is an enemy of the free world. I try to not use things produced by my adversary to not fund my own doom.

This has no basis in reality. The US is the actual enemy of the free world and has been since ww2: occupying countries, sabotaging their domestic politic disputes, staging military coups, bombings, etc. Whatever justifications for those actions after the fact do not make any other country more free.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>military bases across the whole world

Another reason I'm eager to leave NATO is leaving will help cut down on our military base count.

I expect some Europeans will protest, the same way Kurds protested when Trump pulled us out of Syria:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz-WKu881Yc

We'll have to stay strong and ignore their protests. It's the only way to reduce our military footprint and warmongering tendencies.

[jicko]

Yeah because obviously the US-Europe relationship is one way, isn't it?

NATO exists because the US won't allow any other global hegemon to exist. US backing of Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan are for that same reason. I meant that as a neutral statement; large regional powers also do not like each other when situated too close, that's why India and Russia are friendly, and why Russia and China have a complicated relationship despite both being opposed to the US.

Has quite a lot of good also come out of that? To the Europeans, yes. But it's not like the US is doing it from the bottom of their hearts.

And it's not like the US ever intervened in the Middle East for anything other than oil, historically. You go there and piss off the hardcore islamists / dictators, and make use of the Kurds as local fighting forces, and then you abandon them to the revenge of said islamists? Ofc they're pissed.

[8note]

> NATO exists because the US won't allow any other global hegemon to exist.

this sounds like you are american. NATO is Europe driven, with a goal of keeping the americans involved. the alternative is going back to european powers fighting against each other.

the US the whole time has been basically absent. trump didnt start the "will they wont they" rom com setup. its always been there. NATO didnt go to Afghanistan because the US wanted it. europe demanded that the US invoke article 5, ans insisted on sending help

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>NATO exists because the US won't allow any other global hegemon to exist.

The obvious non-US potential hegemon was China, yet we normalized trade with them, which greatly helped their economy grow.

The new one is India. We've been buddying up to them a fair amount as well.

The US also played a role in the creation of the EU, arguably a more potent rival hegemon than any individual European state: https://archive.is/VC2zV

>Has quite a lot of good also come out of that? To the Europeans, yes. But it's not like the US is doing it from the bottom of their hearts.

I don't believe that is true. As I stated elsewhere in this thread, even during the Biden administration, right after Biden sent billions to Ukraine, the US was barely net-positive in approval rating for many European countries:

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u...

If a lot of good came out of the relationship from Europe's perspective, you would expect them to approve of the US. And yet they don't.

So we can conclude that US presence is a negative for Europe, and it would be best for Europe if US troops and security guarantees were withdrawn. Unsurprisingly, many Europeans have requested this course of action.

>And it's not like the US ever intervened in the Middle East for anything other than oil, historically.

The Gulf War was rather similar to the Ukraine invasion in the sense of a powerful country (Iraq) invading a weaker neighbor (Kuwait). But you probably think we only aided Ukraine for minerals-related reasons anyways, eh? That's why Europe is aiding Ukraine right now, correct?

>make use of the Kurds as local fighting forces

So the Kurds and Islamic State are fighting. The US steps in to help the Kurds. At that point we become "warmongers" who are "making use of" the Kurds. It would've been better to stay complicit. After all, the only reason anyone would ever oppose IS is due to oil, right? So that must've been our motivation.

Time to stop the warmongering.

[Matl]

> The obvious non-US potential hegemon was China, yet we normalized trade with them, which greatly helped their economy grow.

Of course you present it as a one way street. Nah, you normalized with China to counter balance the Soviets and after that fell your companies benefited, since it is much cheaper to produce in China.

China just wasn't standing by and it also got something out of that relationship (know how) - the US only wanted it as a cheap sweatshop factory, so as soon as they became a real competitor to the US, the US started with sanctions, tariffs etc.

Having failed in China, the US now wants Latin America to stay behind in development terms, just useful enough to outsource to, but not enough to compete.

[Matl]

> So the Kurds and Islamic State are fighting. The US steps in to help the Kurds. At that point we become "warmongers" who are "making use of" the Kurds.

You left the part where the US sponsored extremist groups in Syria, but of course you did.

You know, your anger makes sense if you selectively leave out large part of the involvement of your own government in various conflicts.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>The issue is that the way you're expected to criticize America from what I observed is along the lines of 'they mean well but...'

Hard to think of any critique of the US I've seen on HN recently which acknowledges the possibility that we might mean well.

Even during the Biden administration, right after we allocated billions of dollars to Ukraine, huge numbers of Europeans expressed an unfavorable view of the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u...

They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war. Now they say they want to be buddies with China which has been actively helping Russia with arms. I don't think there is any point in the US trying to please Europe.

And then you've got the Australians who express their burning hatred of the US for not giving more aid to Ukraine, while Australia's aid as a fraction of GDP is still sitting around 10-15% of that provided by the US.

[roenxi]

> And then you've got the Australians who express their burning hatred of the US for not giving more aid to Ukraine, while Australia's aid as a fraction of GDP is still sitting around 10-15% of that provided by the US.

Which Australians are we talking about here? Australia, if pushed to the absolute limit might formally send a strongly worded letter to the US expressing concerns. They aren't particularly fussed about Ukraine, we've all spent decades politely accepting the US invading random countries for no obvious reason and in defiance of everyone's strategic interests. Australians clearly do not care if distant countries get invaded.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

It's a sentiment I've seen multiple times from Australians online, that Trump is bad for not giving more to Ukraine. See the Australian who chimed in on this discussion for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45035076

Similarly, I saw a person from Italy who declared the US an "enemy of Europe" for not giving more to Ukraine, when the US has given far more than Italy. There's a professor with the last name O'Brien who constantly castigates the US for not giving more, when we gave far more than Ireland.

We just have to stop the warmongering. It never achieves anything.

[roenxi]

Are we talking about rswail's comment? He seems to be framing the situation as a short-term aberration and trying to encourage the US to adopt policies he sees as sensible for them. That is hardly an expression of burning hatred. If only I had enemies so devoted to my success.

Technically he didn't even say anything related to US activity in Ukraine either. He was pointing out that US policy related to international trade and oil was bad. Which is basically a non-controversial opinion as far as I know.

[8note]

Ive seen more than 2 nazi-sympathizers from the states, but i dont think that means americans are all nazis.

youve seen 4ish people and you are extending that to tens or hundreds of millions?

seems a bit silly to me

[OtomotO]

> They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war.

There is a huge difference between attacking foreign nations because of oil... Oh, pardon me, because of... Geopolitical interests... Oh, pardon me... In the name of democracy and self-defense when you're being attacked (such as Ukraine).

We came to help you after 9/11, when for some reason you invaded Iraq although Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda had taken responsibility...

But sure, think that you're white guardians of the flame of freedom and democracy all you want!

You're in exactly the same ballpark as China and Russia, they're just without the Hollywood propaganda.

[Matl]

> They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war.

Europeans helped when you called after 9/11. Are you seriously arguing about being called warmongers considering what your government started in Iran? (and btw screwed the global energy market)

This lack of self awareness is what turns people away.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>Europeans helped when you called after 9/11.

So how would you feel if you got labeled as warmongers for that help?

You're welcome to call us warmongers. Just don't expect us to help you fight wars if you do.

Libya was Europe's idea -- we helped when you called -- yet the US still gets blamed for it. If the US had surged more weapons to Ukraine (as some Europeans were requesting), thus provoking Russia to launch a nuke, we surely would've been blamed for that too.

The pattern I've noticed is that anywhere the US has foreign policy involvement (including Europe), there are locals in that region who are both for and against said involvement. People who aren't knowledgeable about the region will generally not know many details, and simply say "oh, the US is involved in a war again". If that's how we're going to be judged, then yes, I want to be involved in fewer wars. And withdrawing from NATO will help with that objective. So I favor NATO withdrawal.

[Matl]

> Libya was Europe's idea.

Hardly 'Europe's', it was the idea of some 'humanitarian interventionists' in the Obama admin and the then current president of France who wanted to cover up his corrupt dealings.

For what it's worth, I am not a fan of NATO either, so we can agree on that. All US troops should imo immediately leave Europe and loose all access to military facilities on the continent.

As for the whole warmongers thing, answer me two simple questions:

1. Was the 2003 Iraq war started based on false claims about WMDs? Yes/No?

2. Did you just attack Iran for no good reason? (Yes/No?)

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>Hardly 'Europe's', it was the idea of some 'humanitarian interventionists' in the Obama admin and the then current president of France who wanted to cover up his corrupt dealings.

You can see French and UK leadership were making moves before the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_...

Obama's approach was referred to as "leading from behind".

>For what it's worth, I am not a fan of NATO either, so we can agree on that. All US troops should imo immediately leave Europe and loose all access to military facilities on the continent.

I'm glad we can agree on something. I find that a lot of Europeans are not willing to accept the logical implication of their stated beliefs.

>As for the whole warmongers thing, answer me two simple questions: [...]

I'm not sure why you're pushing this "warmongers" point. As I said, I'm an isolationist. I've left many comments here on HN about how I want the US to be more like Switzerland. The Swiss never do anything and thus they never get blamed for anything.

The families of the thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime doubtless think that we are attacking Iran for a good reason. Same way the thousands of Ukrainians slaughtered by Russia probably thought our weapons deliveries were being given for a good reason.

In any case we may be called "complicit" if we do not act -- the same arguments were used in the case of Libya. But we can't keep playing world police. We aren't very good at it, and it is not clear whether it is helpful. Not to mention the dubious ethics of getting involved in the affairs of other countries.

You're either "complicit" in "propping up" bad regimes, or a "warmongering" "imperialist" who "destabilizes" them. There's no way to win. Given the choice, I prefer to be complicit.

[Matl]

> The families of the thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime doubtless think that we are attacking Iran for a good reason

Regardless of the 'thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime' which is supposed to just be accepted as fact despite everyone citing some random number everytime, no they don't.

Because the logic of 'we'll liberate you from oppression by bombing you' does nothing but unites Iranians more than they ever were united before.

Or do you think the killing of schoolgirls by the US is welcomed by Iranians somehow?

Honestly, I am speechless.

[alfiedotwtf]

> Just don't expect us to help you fight wars if you do.

Back at you. I'm glad Europe, Asia, and Australia all said no to helping liberate oil from Iran.

Also, it's so weird seeing Americans wanting to leave NATO because NATO didn't help invade Iran, whilst forgetting that NATO is a defensive pact. Han shot first :headdesk:

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>I'm glad Europe, Asia, and Australia all said no to helping liberate oil from Iran.

I didn't expect any help from them.

>Also, it's so weird seeing Americans wanting to leave NATO because NATO didn't help invade Iran

That's not why I want to leave NATO.

>whilst forgetting that NATO is a defensive pact.

It didn't look very defensive when the Europeans dragged NATO into Libya.

[wat10000]

Nobody got "dragged" in. Being that NATO is a defensive pact, no country was under any obligation to participate. There is exactly one time in history when a NATO country has actually invoked the treaty that requires help from other members, and I'm sure you know which country that was.

[wat10000]

There's a big difference between helping an ally that's been attacked or intervening in a civil war, and attacking countries for no good reason at all. Afghanistan and Libya don't merit the "warmonger" label, but Iraq and Iran do. I don't think there's any equivalent on the European side in recent times.

[8note]

the US dodnt want help after 9/11

NATO insisted on helping

[pelorat]

USA invoked article 5.

[wat10000]

"They call us warmongers for carrying out an unprovoked invasion, and then wonder why we don't want to help them resist an unprovoked invasion."

Think about this for just three seconds, I'm begging you.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

The phrase "warmonger" doesn't specify anything about the nature of the war, or the reason it was started. It's a very simpleminded "war=bad". If that's how we will be judged, fine.

As soon as you use the phrase "unprovoked" then you start getting into messy details. Are we so sure that the war in Ukraine was not provoked by NATO expansion? Are we so sure that the war in Iran was not provoked by Iran's actions against Israel or against its own people?

The ideologue doesn't like details. They prefer to see the world in black and white.

[wat10000]

warmonger - noun: one who urges or attempts to stir up war

And to preempt the inevitable "the dictionary isn't always how people use it" response, this is in fact how everyone uses the word.

So yes, it's very much tied to the nature of the war and the reason it was started. Attacking Iran for no particular reason is warmongering. Defending Ukraine from invasion is not.

"Unprovoked" can be difficult but I don't think it actually is here. Yes, you can list reasons. But even if you believe the wars' proponents, the justification isn't there. It's like if I tap someone on the nose and they blow my head off. Was there some provocation? Technically, yes. Does the killing count as "provoked"? Not really. That word carries an implication of sufficient, justified provocation, not just "something happened."

Did NATO expansion provoke the invasion of Ukraine? Maybe. Is that sufficient to say the invasion was "provoked"? No, not even close. Similar for the justifications given for Iraq and Iran.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

We'll be called warmongers regardless. E.g. many in this thread suggest all US Middle East activity has been warmongering, even though the Gulf War, for example, was fairly similar to Ukraine in the sense of a powerful state invading its weaker neighbor.