[xyzelement]

>> They were scientific in spite of being religious. Not because of it.

Can you justify that claim?

>> plenty of scientists including Feynman and Hawkings.

Feynman is a good example of that. He was raised in a religious family and went to synagogue every week. His dad challenged him to continuously challenge the orthodox knowledge which I suspect the father himself saw within the talmudic tradition etc.

As feynman rejected Judaism and religion in general he nonetheless hung on and hugely benefited from the approach his religious father instilled on him. Similar to what I said about Einstein above I am not trying to claim feynman for religion but I think he's very far from "today's atheists" if that makes sense. If feynman didn't have his father (for whom religion was integral) I doubt he'd turn out who he was.

>> These are unrelated things

As per above I don't see it that way.

[tock]

> Can you justify that claim?

Can you?

> Feynman is a good example of that.

"Do you call yourself an agnostic or an atheist? Feynman: An atheist. Agnostic for me would be trying to weasel out and sound a little nicer than I am about this."

> > If feynman didn't have his father (for whom religion was integral) I doubt he'd turn out who he was.

Right. If we are just gonna reach for stuff like this then I'm gonna say Feynman wouldn't turn out to be who he was if he believed in religion.

> As per above I don't see it that way.

Belief without evidence. Hey I get it now!

[co-ent]

> Can you?

How could there have ever been religious men of science?

The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will make you an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you. - Werner Heisenberg

[tock]

No the claim that religion is a major reason for science.

> How could there have ever been religious men of science?

Oh I have no problem with this. There will be religious scientists and non religious scientists. Just like there will be scientists who like red vs scientists who like blue. Being a scientist doesn't mean they are immune to broader cultural trends.

[stringfood]

God is waiting but not the God of any organized religion - I personally believe if their is a God, we do not know him and never will

[Gander5739]

An interesting postulate.

[dh2022]

Brilliant response. Thank you!!

[alphawhisky]

Turing, Higgs, Curie. All atheists. Religion has no bearing on whether or not someone achieves greatness in their life. In the past, people often were "religious" simply just to get the public to listen to them. They almost threw out Newton's life work just because he didn't believe in the "trinity" of the christian god (note: he was very deeply religious/spiritual and believed his work was proof of intelligent design.) Bottom line, we're moving away from religion in our world because it provides increasingly less social value and causes more and more issues. The way I see it, religion is a terrible curse on our world that only brings war and distrust. If you can't keep it in your chapel then you're an evangelist and your morals are fundamentally no different than the colonizers of old.

[notlenin]

> If you can't keep it in your chapel then you're an evangelist and your morals are fundamentally no different than the colonizers of old.

disagree.

Colonization is done by force, evangelism is, in theory, consensual.

If I tell you "hey, have you tried the Emacs text editor? It's great, I love it, I recommend it to everyone looking for a great text editor, if you'd like I can show you how to set it up", that's not the same thing as saying "I claim your computer in the name of King Stallman, use Emacs or die".

[alphawhisky]

Evangelism just achieves their violence societally and incentivizes via positive reinforcement vs negative. It's more like telling a starving person "Come to the dark side, we have cake" when the reason they're starving is because you only do equitable business with your in-group.

[jimbokun]

The decline of religion is happening in lockstep with declines in happiness and mental health and increases in loneliness.

Also you somehow skipped over the track record of the atheist regimes of the 20th century.

[alphawhisky]

Nuance has left the chat. As long as we're here:

The resurgence of religion is happening in lockstep with the rise of Nationalism in the US. The rich and powerful are using it like a tool to manufacture compliance, which is literally the reason religion was invented. A multi cultural society cannot be a religious society. A society that values everyone equally cannot be a religious society. This has been proven again and again.