[PaulHoule]

I agree completely.

People will say there is more to it than that, I mean, ethics is a big branch of philosophy, but I think "you feel bad when you do something wrong" is what makes you a moral subject.

I'd say that animals are moral subjects in that they are sensitive to ruptures in relationships and expectations. The first time I fell off a horse the horse was a lot more shook up than I was. A cat doesn't feel guilty about killing a bird (not against the values of cats) but does seem to feel guilty about breaking a vase.

See also

https://simonwillison.net/2025/Feb/3/a-computer-can-never-be...

[danfunk]

Accountability is especially beautiful when self directed. It isn't us holding the cat accountable for the vase. That is pointless. The cat holding itself responsible, that is what makes our relationship with them possible.

[PaulHoule]

When you get into "animal morality" I think there is near-consensus now that "animals can be moral" but huge disagreement over exactly what that means!

Like whether they are cued by your feelings (I don't think so in that case where I found falling off a horse often isn't very painful or scary, like the geometry is usually favorable for you and it's not like you are falling in free space but you are in contact with a body that can slow down your fall... and you might very well smack it in the mouth with the bit or yank its head with the reins) or a violation of the script, or maybe just "common sense" empathy.

It's a running gag in our family that people are writing papers proving horses, dogs, cats, corvids and other animals have various cognitive-social capabilities, particularly regarding "theory of mind" because if you have dealings with animals it is pretty obvious that they're socially intelligent, probably about as much as us. Doing the experiments are hard though because of things like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

[danfunk]

I love the story of Clever Hans, which says so much about humans and so little about horses - I get the point that it makes these experiments very difficult.