[genuine]

Self-taught developer here with getting close to 15 years experience and these were not really the things I missed.

Here's what I know I missed: a bunch of useless shit. Sorting algorhythms that I don't have to implement. Understanding of trees that I don't have to implement. Knowing what "NP hard" means.

That stuff gives you maybe 5 minutes of conversation with another comp sci major a year in many jobs- as those were the 5 minutes I cut to 10 seconds with a "whatever". Sure, some jobs require you to think like you just got a PhD in computer science. That's fine, but I worked with a PhD in computer science, and one with a masters. It made very little difference. I ended up managing the one with the PhD, not that it matters.

But to all of those guys and gals thinking "so I don't need a degree in CS" think again. What did matter was that I didn't apply for least 50% of the jobs I could have applied for, not because of my ability, but because of my lack of a CS degree that was in the job requirements (although that requirement is often bullshit). And when you have no experience then it really can keep you from getting your foot in the door. I got lucky- I had worked at a place that had a developer opening, so I was a known quantity and they knew I could pick it up. These days I think it would be easier to start off as a contractor writing Rails apps.

[rdtsc]

> Understanding of trees that I don't have to implement.

The main purpose of understanding 'of trees' is not to re-implement them (I have done that though) but in order to know how to use use them effectively. This is about knowing how your tools work. If it is hammer, well, it is hammer, but some of these tools are pretty complex and it is worth spending time understanding what trade-offs different data structures have.

You don't have to get a 4 year degree by any means to do that you can also learn that on your own.

> I ended up managing the one with the PhD, not that it matters.

So if it doesn't then why are you mentioning it. Maybe maturity and the ability to communicate should be #4 in the list?

[genuine]

Your HN user was created 1234 days ago. Happy 1234-day! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABYnqp-bxvg

I never, ever had to learn trees the way I understand that they were taught in comp sci. Sure, that knowledge is a tool, but I was fine without it.

> So if it doesn't then why are you mentioning it. Maybe maturity and the ability to communicate should be #4 in the list?

The point is not to manage, the point is to be happy with the work you do. I personally think it was sad that someone spent that much of their life getting a PhD and I didn't have a degree, and I was telling him what to do. I really shouldn't make fun of that, and I apologize. And there is a job I would have LOVED to have had that required a PhD, so in the end, I'm just as sad.

[erikpukinskis]

CS grad here and I mostly agree with you.

The main thing I think I got from the degree is that it took away all of my fear of The Stack. In Operating Systems class they just sat us (a bunch of barely Java programming ninnies) down and said "OK, you're going to write a MINIX clone in C and assembly. First assignment is boot." And you do it. It'll take putting your heads together with friends, dragging tips out of the professor, and lots of trial and error, but you do it. There's a support structure there so that you struggle, but you make progress.

Of course I don't remember a damn detail about what we did, but for a brief period in 2000 I felt like burgeoning kernel hacker.

In Programming Languages they're like "ok, you're going to write a program in ML". And you do it. PROLOG too. You just have the experience over and over of "that is some bizarre shit... oh, but now I learned it."

I went in thinking "I can hack together some HTML files and I can write some stuff in QBasic" and I left four years later thinking "I can attack problems at any level of the stack".

Now, you can definitely get the same experience outside of school. That's where I agree with you. You just have to self motivate. I will say, I don't know a whole lot of 18 year olds who really have the skills to self-motivate themselves to dig all the way down to Assembly. But those who do: I'm super impressed.

And of course, being fearless about the full software/hardware stack isn't everything. You really only need to understand a couple levels above and below your wheelhouse. But I do think it's a legit, valuable thing, that self-taught developers are more likely to miss.

And, of course, some of my classmates never got past The Fear either! They just retreated with passing grades back to Javaland and at this point are surely better paid than my broke bootstrapping ass.