[Lammy]

Dumb comparison, because buying a Framework is a single transaction where I exchange money for a computer, and buying a Mac is an entrypoint to “The Ecosystem” where Apple wants to squeeze me for $<pricing_tier>/month forever.

Peep the margins on “Products” versus “Services” and you will understand what Apple's incentives are and why just selling me hardware isn't it: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2026-q1/FY26_Q1_Consol...

[llbbdd]

I've bought two Apple products in my life, both Macbook Pros, one in 2014 and one in 2021. I have a Pixel phone, zero transactions in the App Store all-time, pay $0 to Apple on any kind of subscription basis. Not disagreeing with the nature of their incentive structure, but if they're intentionally crippling their hardware division somehow to squeeze me for money, they're really bad at it.

[afavour]

Buying a Mac is also a single transaction. Yes, they have lots of other services they want to sell you on but you're in no way obliged to take them up on it.

[Lammy]

I don't want to use a computer whose greatest aspiration is to be a sales funnel even if I am personally strong-willed enough to say no when nagged.

[afavour]

You’re imagining a “greatest aspiration” that doesn’t exist. macOS has an iCloud login button in the Settings app and that’s about it.

[Lammy]

Sorry, but you're wrong. Music-dot-app is a great example. Check out all the ways it tries to upsell you even if you just want to play local files: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anrB6fP1WeQ&t=65s

- opens to a full-page Apple Music subscription service ad on first run.

- search functionality defaults to “Apple Music” instead of “Local Library” (or “iTunes Store”) even when the user has no active subscription.

- Apple Music subscription upsell banner ad along the bottom of the search results screen, that stays on screen as you scroll the results pane.

Check out at the end when he demos Music-dot-app's Settings pane changing to include CD-ripping settings when and only when a CD drive is available, something they could also do and chose not to for Apple Music subscription service when the user isn't subscribed.

[afavour]

Don't use the Music app. It's fully uninstallable, I don't think I've ever launched it. There are plenty of third party solutions available. I really don't consider Music.app to be a core OS feature.

[Lammy]

Yeah no shit. I use Feishin personally: https://github.com/jeffvli/feishin

But I think it is very fair to judge the OOTB experience as a whole as a reflection of the company's priorities.

[rimliu]

you are arguing with people who do actually use Macs by providing some random videos on youtube. How does that make sense?

[Lammy]

> people who do actually use Macs

— Sent from my (work) MacBook Pro M3

[rafram]

macOS seriously never nags you about services. Service nags aren't classy. You can credibly accuse Apple of plenty of things, but having a lack of class isn't one.

[Lammy]

My screenshots directory says you are wrong: https://i.ibb.co/cKjL8qcG/Screenshot-2025-02-18-at-09-07-06....

My last (and first, and only) iPhone was even worse. At one point the Settings app had no fewer than three paid-service nags at the top that I had to scroll through to even get to the first actual setting.

Storage almost full: enable iCloud Backup!

Try Apple Music, first month free!!

Activate your Apple News+ free trial!!! https://i.ibb.co/Cp275qQ9/news.webp

[rafram]

Image Playground isn’t a service, it’s a free local image generation model. But I’ll grant you that the News+ thing is kind of annoying. I wouldn’t call it a nag, though - it shows in the Settings anpp after you buy a new device that includes free months, while they’re still valid, then it goes away forever.

[initatus]

> while they’re still valid, then it goes away forever.

It actually stays, even after expired. Then if you tap the "two weeks free!" it says "expired, so sorry, but do want to pay us a slightly discounted rate instead of free?"

Then the alert went away.

Super scummy.

Source: happened a few months ago with the promo on my newish iphone 17 when I thought I'd try appletv out to watch pluribus.

[rafram]

It's really not, though. You don't even need an Apple account to set up a Mac.

I pay $3/month to Apple in exchange for full-quality backups of decades of photos, but I could easily stop doing that, or switch to another provider, if I wanted to. (I don't, because $3/month is extremely fair for what I get.) I've never paid for any other Apple service and likely never will. The OS never, ever nags me about services - compare that to Windows!

[vizzier]

> or switch to another provider

Can you though? Its been a few years since I've been on apple, but being able to get anything but icloud native support in other apps was basically non-existent. Compared to android where it gives you a plethora of choice out of the box.

[rafram]

Yes - they're already on my computer, so any full-disk backup service will back them up by default. There's an option to purge them from disk and download from iCloud on demand, but you don't need to use it: https://support.apple.com/en-us/111762

[vizzier]

ah fair, I was thinking on the iphone, but in fairness this is a thread about a laptop

[fizwidget]

Even on an iPhone you can back up your library to Google Photos or other services. You just can’t do so directly through Apple’s Photos app.

[nicoburns]

It's different on mobile (iOS/Android) where individual apps need special support for cloud providers. On a mac everything is just a file for most apps, so all the cloud providers work by default.

[HDBaseT]

Whilst you don't "need" an Apple account to setup a Mac, using a Macbook without an account may not be viable for a lot of people.

First and foremost, you cannot install any applications through the primary method of app installation, which is the App Store.

You also cannot use certain applications like iMovie (which is pre-installed) without an Apple Account.

MacOS will always prompt you in the Settings to sign in with iCloud. Opt into Betas, including Public and Developer Betas are not possible without an iCloud account.

The Apple land is miles better than the Microsoft land, which you aptly point out though.

[d3Xt3r]

I've never seen it stated anywhere that the App Store is the primary method for macOS. Well, I could be wrong, maybe Apple does mention it somewhere, but pretty much every popular app publisher still publishes their .dmg file directly on their own website, much like most Windows developers.

At least I've never had to use the store in my 15+ years of using MacBooks, and I can't see myself using one anytime soon, unless Apple starts forcing you to (in which case I'll just stick to using homebrew).

[rjh29]

You're also locked into their ecosystem for repairs, accessories etc. all of which are more expensive than anywhere else.

[opan]

What kind of accessories? You can use cheap generic USB-C docks/hubs, depending on your needs. (macOS doesn't support DP MST so depending on # of screens you want to attach, you may need a more expensive dock, though it still doesn't have to be Apple-specific).

[aurareturn]

What $/month are you forced to buy for a Mac?