[dragochat]

100%. I'm willing to prioritize what matters at the right time. if "inner-system security" is not the right priority, and security can be attained at the "outer-system level" better, we should have the balz to say it. fuckitol

[gamerslexus]

Imagine if your doctor said "we don't really need to do this if some other guy or nurse does a right job, so fuck it".

In other critical professions you don't want to screw up because when you lose license you're legally unemployable. Maybe it's time to require a license to be a programmer. We used to have a strong culture but those days are gone and stakes are higher. Putting people at risk because you think VC can vibe code an insecure app and then it's everybody else's responsibility to ship it securely?

[dragochat]

you got everything I said wrong: I'm familiar with security and infrastructure best practice and I'm confident I/we can securely deploy almost any vibe-coded crap someone can throw at us - we understand security, we understand defense-in-depth, we understand the subtle trade offs of why security by obscurity is usually a bad idea (and when it does help) etc.

sure, if the vibe-coded sloptopus does bank transfers and stuff, properly carving out these pieces out of it might require actual engineering work before containerizing it - but someone is willing to pay for it it can be done

some "toy" example: take a crappy app that stores llm keys in config files that the llm agents themselves can edit - after isolating it up, but an llm proxy in front of it and have those keys be short lived proxy-keys with aggressive rate limits and monitoring etc etc

isolation, injecting proper monitoring into code of apps, putting proxies between app and apis, and layers between app and infra it runs on or touches etc

and these things now can be mostly cookbook-ified / automated 90% of the way too

as long as you can shop things into little ppl and ensure short-lived and granular access to valuable data you can 100% run totally unsecure and buggy code reliably and get value from it

it's engineering and understanding security from first principles [and a culture arund it - that _is_ the HARD af bit though...] instead of just believing in "secure app best practices" from the "holy scriptures" - secure apps are hackable, and unsecure apps can be unhackable, heck even mil systems run on unpatched old software everywhere, they're just properly insulated, the components are insecure but the system as a whole can be perfectly secure

[gamerslexus]

If you believe in unhackable, maybe you're not familiar with security enough...

[dragochat]

ffs sake, u get the point... "under threat models x, z & q that are considered for scenarios ..."

anything deployed is hackable ofc, question is just the profit/risk ratio a business tolerates/prefers, and what backup plans exist to "reboot" after fatal incidents

nothing's perfect in the real world but most things are survivable

reducing all risk is the same as reducing all opportunity for profit - and in a much truer sense than it seems ...as you also reduce adversary's risk to profit form you, so essentially pursuing too low risk you head towards negative sum (as security has costs) games that on average we all loose from playing