[amazingamazing]

> my kids play outside unsupervised all the time, as do all the kids in my neighborhood. I live in just a regular suburban neighborhood

Your kids are hardly free-range. Let me guess, there's no way for them to actually meaningfully leave the area (no train, bus, etc)? It's like dumping kids on a 5 acre farm and saying they can do whatever they want. hardly free-range in the way described in the article.

Presumably you live in a suburb for the reasons the person in the article checked in on the free-range kid.

my personal litmus test is if you'd let your 13 year kid explore Manhattan alone during the day. Many say no because it's dangerous, and yet Manhattan is safer than most American suburbs. just FUD all the way down sadly.

[ryandrake]

Yea, I always through "free range" meant the kid walking (or taking the bus/train) a few miles through the city to get to an actual "other place" destination. Not "playing across the street in the suburban park." If the latter is now considered unusual, we have some big problems!!

[nostrebored]

It is in SF. My son’s school would not let him walk 3 minutes to an aftercare program. They were actually willing to break federal law to stop him from walking a single block away.

I also let him play at the park on his own occasionally. I will get calls from well meaning but extremely overprotective friends to let me know that “they can’t watch him anymore.” He is ten! The library, connected to the park, has a phone which he can use to reach us.

People called my parents hover parents, but at ten I could have played at the neighborhood park by myself.

[em-bee]

If the latter is now considered unusual, we have some big problems!!

it is, and we do:

https://www.offthegridnews.com/current-events/mom-charged-wi...

https://reason.com/2025/08/09/child-protective-services-inve...

https://reason.com/2026/01/16/she-let-her-6-year-old-ride-to...

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrest...

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/parents-investig...

https://nationalpost.com/news/growing-up-independent-is-ille...

https://www.todaysparent.com/blogs/mom-arrested-leaving-daug...

https://legalclarity.org/is-it-illegal-to-let-your-kid-play-...

those are all from the first page of a search for "parents charged for letting kids alone on the playground"

there are probably many more such stories.

[ghaff]

The usual contrast being drawn is kids wandering around a suburban area, walking to school, playing with kids in a nearby rural property. It's not hopping onto a bus to the city a few tens of miles away. You do see schoolchildren in Japan on the train by themselves but I'm not sure that's ever been very common in the US.

[amazingamazing]

there's really no reason American kids in metro areas like SF, Boston, DC, NYC couldn't take a bus 5 miles away by themselves. when one comes up of an actual reason to why, it contradicts real statistics.

the biggest things parents should worry about is their kid being bullied by other kids during school, a supposedly safe place, and other family. strangers just aren't the major source of violence towards children.

[ButlerianJihad]

Welp this week we in Phoenix are dealing with a report of a 17-year-old high school girl who boarded a light rail train (the one with security cameras and guards) and she was harassed and assaulted by a mob of boys on the train, presumably in front of human onlookers; she disembarked, and was assaulted some more.

She is now in a neck brace, and her mother is absolutely distraught, saying this is something she cannot fix for her beloved daughter. I am distraught as well that this could happen to anyone at all on the same train that I ride every week.

[ghaff]

That's a sad story though getting a bit far afield from young kids taking public transit or otherwise traveling away from their homes. At 17 I was in college and taking urban transportation (and flights) all the time.

[vel0city]

Multiple people died on the same stretch of road on the same afternoon that I drive on often about a month ago. One was just a teenager in a car that was following the law, it was the other car that was speeding.

I've seen lots of death on the roads around me.

But sure, it's the train that's unsafe.

[altairprime]

Someone and their gang pulled a knife on me as a kid when I was riding the bus forty years ago in a university town, but that doesn’t make what they did normalized, it just makes an anecdote. As it happens, though, that is quite normalized in the U.S., especially if you’re not white.

A lot of U.S. residents inure themselves to random acts of violence because they either feel helpless to change the societal contexts of that violence and/or because admitting that violence would require confronting the benefits of power exploitation vs. the drawbacks of racism, sexism, bullying, and bystanderism. That swarm of boys abusing a girl to enforce societal mores that benefit them to her detriment is a trope from Pleasantville. This isn’t some new or unknown thing. This is a standard-issue United States Lynch Mob that’s been known about for a century.

I’ve been upset about this for thirty years, which is when I first discovered this. Welcome to the shameful desert of the real. Sad that it took y’all so long to see it; but now you have a chance to decide a way forward. Circle the wagons and raise sheltered, and therefore weakened, children? Teach every family about this threat all the way down to the youngest that kids understand danger? Crossing guards that ride the buses and have safety whistles and self-defense training? Lobby your city government to shift policing dollars to transit safety officers? Lobby your regional government to shift road maintenance dollars to gang violence de-escalation efforts?

As you can see, it’s difficult to find a way forward that feels appropriately vengeful upon ‘those that hurt our budding flower’ while also having a meaningful impact on the quality of the future. Most regions would just try to defund bus service, which fucks over everyone except wealthy adults on time scales longer than ten years or so, because at least that ‘feels’ like an effective response.

Good luck.

[mmooss]

> I’ve been upset about this for thirty years

Completely normal. Trauma at a certain level, unlike other memories and emotions, doesn't seem impacted by time. I'm sorry to hear what happened to you.

> that is quite normalized in the U.S., especially if you’re not white. / A lot of U.S. residents inure themselves to random acts of violence

This part seems to universalize the experience, though. What is the basis for it? Crime is at generational lows. I've used public transit in cities uncounted times and I have never seen a crime; that's what is normal for me.

[altairprime]

> Trauma at a certain level

No, not traumatized for thirty years; that’s not a valid substitution here. Upset, in the way that people that want to effect societal change are upset at acceptance of the status quo. The alternative is apathy and hopelessness, and I refuse to adopt salves (such modern rationalism) that would let me stop caring about difficult ‘uphill’ battles.

> I'm sorry to hear

I refuse your apology; instead, exert your own form of societal pressure against, say, bullying. It’s a more approachable target than lynching and will help you switch your instincts from irrelevant sympathy to relevant action. (And if you already do, bully for you, pun intended :)

> I've used public transit in cities uncounted times and I have never seen a crime; that's what is normal for me.

Mixed-wealth U.S. cities, in daytime and at night? In exclusively downtown, college, and/or affluent neighborhoods? (So excluding for example Stanford, Palo Alto, and Mountain View, which are tilted quite high-wealth and thus low-crime, Brock Turners notwithstanding.)

Also: Are you a white man of middle-class or greater wealth? That generally matters greatly when evaluating anecdotes on this topic, independent of all other factors, and is strongly correlated with ‘I have no matching anecdotes from my own experience’ annotations.

[kjkjadksj]

This was of course the trains fault

[weakfish]

I’m also curious why you write “we in Phoenix are dealing with…”

I’ve noticed a trend of people attaching a sort of personal identification with headlines

[coldtea]

Perhaps they don't identify as a passive news consumer about irrelevant people, but as a resident with a bond to their city and wider community.

Imagine that!

[jMyles]

I don't think that was the crux of the inquiry / objection. It's wonderful to feel such a bond with one's _community_, but it's a different thing to bind oneself to such a dramatic statistical outlier and make decisions ("dealing with") as if it's a common occurrence.

[NordStreamYacht]

Japan is a monocultural civilisational state. That is a big factor.

[garbawarb]

American children are in more danger because the country's more diverse?

[rawgabbit]

It is the difference in culture. In big cities, Japan doesn’t tolerate public deviance. Police are visible in every block. They are very strict about weapons; you can’t bring a knife in public for no reason etc.

[spinach]

They also have a culture of enduring things in silence for the greater collective good. For instance, most girls and women will have stories of harassment, especially by men on crowded trains but almost none of them will do anything about it.

[xavortm]

To his point - I would say, it's a bug factor BECAUSE on average their culture seems more safe. But it's not because it's monocultural. Bad "monoculture" is bad, good one is good, nothing complex there. Simplifying, but that's pretty much what is said

[NordStreamYacht]

You're missing the more important word.

[bdlowery]

Yes

[paulryanrogers]

Diversity doesn't make places more dangerous (if i understand the stats). But humans are naturally tribal and fear those who look and act significantly different.

[mmooss]

That depends on an arbitrary perception of 'my tribe'. Irish and Italians used to riot against each other. Germans were hated (look up a quote from Benjamin Franklin). Protestants and Catholics used to riot. Every wave of immigrants seems to get the same treatment by some.

Within a few generations, their decendants marry each other.

[coldtea]

Because humans are tribal they will also go on to attack and prey on those who are outside their tribe, making diversity more dangerous. Especially when diversity is not merely some people of different ethnic/racial backgrounds living and working together, but a population split into isolated cultures with different circumstances.

Unless there's a big strict enforcer to keep everyone in line of course.

[macNchz]

This is something a lot of people seem to believe that is not borne out in the research. Plenty of specific counter examples like Queens NY, a densely populated and exceptionally diverse place with crime rates comparable or better than many much more homogenous places in America. Poverty and income inequality are much better predictors. I felt this reddit comment from a while ago did a pretty good job rolling up sources on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1jxff...

[insane_dreamer]

monoculture has nothing to do with it, as if more diversity creates a less safe environment

but Japan is much safer than the US, in no small part because they have the sense to not allow people to own weapons

[sfifs]

Russia is fairly mono cultural too. Is it safe?

[GerryAdamsSF]

Yes. Russia is inarguably safer in terms of street crime than the USA.

Philadelphia in 2025 had a higher murder rate than Belfast during the height of a civil war.

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?co...

Crime in the USA is also extremely regional and local in pattern.

[jemmyw]

I don't think numbeo can be a good source, it seems to be self reported metrics. I asked it for comparison of NZ to USA and it told me that NZ was about the same or worse on most numbers. But actual crime rates are lower in NZ. The murder rate is 5x lower.

[lostlogin]

Murder is a faulty good comparison as it’s unlikely to be a stat that gets manipulated much. Every other crime seems subject to political and social whims of various departments and political agendas.

[mmooss]

> Philadelphia in 2025 had a higher murder rate than Belfast during the height of a civil war.

Do you have a cite? In American cities crime is at generational lows, including / especially murder.

[mmooss]

I just looked it up, and found this in a Philadelphia newspaper:

"The numbers of homicides and shooting victims in Philadelphia have continued their sharp declines since the pandemic. There were 222 homicides last year, the fewest since 1966, and 935 shooting victims, the first time there had been under 1,000 since at least 2007."

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/pew-state-of-city...

[deepsun]

Oh no, no way. Child violence on the streets and in school is WAY higher, it's ingrained in culture. It's also pretty rare if a Russian kid would tell his parents about it (only if property damage is involved).

I don't know how your link gathers data (website only shows one dude, software engineer, not a professional survey statistician), but from personal experience I can surely say it's rankings are BS.

The closest in US are the "bad towns" like East Palo Alto or some neighborhoods of Oakland, with their respect for ex-cons and prison slang.

[insensible]

1) Russia is generally very safe, and 2) I agree that the violence amongst children is crazy. It’s a great place to homeschool and free-range and I have not found a way to send children to school in a way that’s acceptable to us.

[watwut]

Maybe you should stop believing those bullshit sites.

[insensible]

Good morning from Russia, where I moved my large free-range family (from the US) with the topic of free-ranging children very high on the list of reasons why.

My children cross town by themselves to attend classes, it’s normal to see children walking or riding public transport by themselves once they turn about age 7.

There’s crime and bullying — we have always homeschooled successfully and have had negative experiences with classrooms here — but in my opinion it’s not as bad as the places I’ve lived in the US.

And the streets are definitely safer. There are some risks like gopniki enjoying causing random trouble like pepper spraying strangers, but I believe that type of danger is a threat mostly to young adult men and almost certainly not children. Our daughters can safely do what they need to do with appropriate precautions (that do not include staying within single-digit meters of a vigilant adult at all times else CPS!!!).

[watwut]

Russia has higher incarceration rates and higher criminality then EU and USA.

Also, French, German, Swesish, you name it do all the stuff alone. And third, they have less bullying in schools.

[NordStreamYacht]

The US is 5th, Russia is 33rd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

[lesostep]

Russia isn't mono cultural thought. It has muslim regions, buddhist regions, official jewish jurisdiction (it was created by USSR to segregate jews, so it basically has no jews left. But it's mostly because they moved to other regions). There is a duoreligion regions, where having two religions is a mundane thing. And even christian regions are various in traditions.

I wanted to write that the requirements to teach in russian language in russian schools is relatively new one. But turns out, you could still do it. Not like in private schools, you can have a government school in another language.

It can be argued that there is unifying postsoviet culture, but since different regions were treated differently under Soviet regime, there is a lot of differences.

[JuniperMesos]

Why do you think Russia is fairly monocultural? Russia covers a gigantic amount of territory and has people from a large number of ethnic and linguistic groups living there, many of which are not particularly closely related.

[lstodd]

It by no means is monocultural. As for safety, well, yes, pretty safe.

More important is that helicopter-style parenting is unthinkable there, people will just not understand if someone would attempt that. Also not much in insane laws (they have some, but..) and the police will tell you to bugger off if you try make them act on those that exist. So the situation in the article is impossible.

[insensible]

That “but..” is a big key to the difference between Russia and the US in this conversation. The US has a severe cultural propensity for rule-following and reporting things, but in Russia there’s an interesting mix of people seeing society as a commons, seeing personal responsibility as foremost, seeing laws as guidelines that may or may not correspond to reality, and seeing reporting something as fairly extreme behavior. And this includes people at all levels.

[alex-korr]

Big cities like Moscow or St Pete are anything but monocultural.

[zabzonk]

> my personal litmus test is if you'd let your 13 year kid explore Manhattan alone during the day

My parents let me (14) and my brother (9) explore central Paris on our own when my Dad was working at the Paris air show for the RAF. No problems at all even though this was just after the student protests in the 60s, and so things were a little tense.

I think Manhattan would be OK too, though I've only been there as an adjust. Certainly, you see kids running around London.

[insane_dreamer]

I let my then 13 yr old daughter go around Beijing by bus/subway when we lived there 10 years ago; she had a phone. Felt perfectly safe. Same thing in Tokyo. I'm not sure I would have allowed that had we been living in a big US city like LA, Chicago or NYC -- maybe it's just as safe, IDK, but the fact that anyone in the US can own/carry a weapon makes me feel much less safe than in other developed countries.

[semiquaver]

13??? I’m shocked that it’s even a question. Of course a 13 year old should be allowed to do that.

[graemep]

London and the bits of Pars I have seen are pleasant places to work around. London does have its bad areas, as do other cities. Small towns in the UK are fine, as is most public transport. Parents have got more protective but I still see plenty out by themselves where I live.

[zabzonk]

s/adjust/adult/

[com2kid]

> Your kids are hardly free-range. Let me guess, there's no way for them to actually meaningfully leave the area (no train, bus, etc)? It's like dumping kids on a 5 acre farm and saying they can do whatever they want. hardly free-range in the way described in the article.

This depends on the area. In more urban areas exploring can be done on foot or bike. I live in Seattle, which has some fantastic bike trails that can go on and on for miles and cross into multiple adjacent cities.

In some cities parents are fighting to let their kids play in their own front yard unsupervised. Not an issue in Seattle, where kids are required to walk to and from their neighborhood school by the school district.

But denser areas also have lots of stuff to do within the neighborhood. Within 2 or so miles there is a massive shopping area, multiple bakeries, tons of restaurants, a slew of parks (Seattle has an obscene density of parks, it is one of the best aspects of living here), a lakefront beach (lots of bodies of water in Seattle), 2 swimming pools, tennis courts, and a bunch of other stuff I am probably forgetting right now.

So define free range. If a gaggle of kids travel to the local grocery store together to buy lemons and sugar, then self organize selling lemonade to people passing by on a hot day, is that free range? I'd argue yes.

[beej71]

I grew up in the 70s in a town of 30,000 and consider that time free-range. There was no public transit, only bicycles.

[buu700]

Manhattan is one thing, but I would never let my kids go to the 70s unsupervised.

[saintfire]

This is the helicopter parenting the article is condemning. Children made it through the 70's just fine.

[spicyusername]

    just fine

Just a dash of survivor bias here I believe.

I'm pretty sure the data shows the opposite actually, that compared to today some percentage more of them didn't make it out.

[Mordisquitos]

> It's like dumping kids on a 5 acre farm and saying they can do whatever they want.

What do you mean it's like dumping kids on a farm? Are the suburbs really THAT lethally dangerous?

Source [22 minutes]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLAfDrFUBkA

[shawn_w]

Redmond has decent (though not great) bus coverage and light rail stations to Seattle and points beyond in the core downtown area and next to a huge park.

[yieldcrv]

> and yet Manhattan is safer than most American suburbs

[something traumatic happens and 50 people run for their safety]

see and as proven, only 1 person was assaulted!

I think a future society that counts trauma and mental health disruptions instead of just the crime stats will reach different conclusions on areas considered safe

[tayo42]

Plenty of trouble for a 13 year old in Manhattan. Even if it's not dangerous, you can find your own problems easily enough.

[borski]

You can find your own problems on an abandoned farm too. A kid can always choose to get into trouble, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

[tayo42]

The type of trouble is different. Your not going to get robbed trying to buy drugs on a farm.

[com2kid]

I grew up in a neighborhood that had a drug den next to the 7-11 that all the kids went to buy slurpees at.

The dealers didn't bother the kids, and the kids knew not to go into that yard.

There were plenty of street walkers on a particular stretch of streets. They weren't talking to anyone who wasn't looking to buy.

Of course I had the advantage of being a broke kid at the time, so I wasn't a mark for crime. I was just another neighborhood kid who was walking through. It was a working class neighborhood with a few sketchy parts. There was the occasional shooting or drive by, and property theft was common (every bike I had as a kid was stolen from me at some point), but it wasn't unsafe in regards to violence.

I almost impaled myself on a rebar pole while jumping my bike over hills at an abandoned construction site. That was the most dangerous thing that ever happened to me growing up there. (well aside from the time I almost died falling into a sink hole and managed to grab onto a nearby tree root and pull myself up in time, but that was in the middle of nearby woods, so not gonna blame that on societal problems!)

[borski]

Humboldt County would like a word.

[kingraoul]

I mean by that standard there’s plenty of trouble everywhere for everyone.