[ninjagoo]

> Americans clearly don't believe in science anymore

There's about a third that lean that way or atleast they don't care, and they have gained control of the government because of various factors, namely,

part of the middle third disillusioned with economics (left behind) and wanting a change,

another part of the middle third staying home because of geopolitics,

and yet another part of the middle third falling prey to media biased by right-wing billionaire/corporatist capture.

Any suggestions for a long-term fix for this problem?

[krapp]

I don't know what the long term fix is, because that presupposes the ability to plan long term, which is something I don't think the US is capable of anymore.

Part of the solution has to be breaking down the aggressive selfishness and individualism of American society and establishing the ideal of a common American cultural identity and civic duty. This used to exist, but only within the framework of racial and cultural homogeneity. We need that but without the Christian nationalism and white supremacy. That means Americans will have to believe in society and government and each other, rather than only their own immediate interests. It means some dirty words for Americans, a bit more "socialism" and "multiculturalism", maybe "regulations" and "taxes."

We need strong science and civics curriculum in our schools, which means we need to fund schools, which means we need to stop seeing schools as dens of atheist communist mind control, which will be a problem for a lot of the country. We need to establish separation of church and state as an explicit Constitutional principle. We need to remove tax exempt status for religious institutions. We need to repeal the Electoral College so that conservative Christian votes don't count more than everyone else. I don't think that keeping slave states in the union is still a problem worth worrying about.

But I don't know. How do you make people give a damn? How do you convince people that an objective reality exists? How do you convince people that empathy isn't a sin? Maybe it's just a generational thing. Maybe enough bastards just need to die out.

[ninjagoo]

  > the ability to plan long term, which is something I don't think the US is capable of anymore.

It may seem that way, but this lack is temporary until the pendulum swings back the other way. What is needed some mechanism to keep progress and planning going even when the pendulum is unfavorable.

  > the aggressive selfishness and individualism of American society

It's an error to think the loudest voices are the majority. Also, selfishness and individualism are not necessarily cojoined twins, though it may seem that way at the moment. Americans are generous with their time and money as one can see from donation stats. [1] The comparative data at [2] is especially eye-opening.

  > This used to exist, but only within the framework of racial and cultural homogeneity

This might be a myth. See [2]. Also, cooperative/pro-social behaviors are well documented across a spectrum of biological species, including humans. It might be innate to structured biological life, individual pathologies notwithstanding. "Society" is a thing, after all.

  > It means some dirty words for Americans

I think this is an artifact of media capture. We the people need to wrest back control of the medium.

  > Maybe enough bastards just need to die out.

There's always new ones being minted, unfortunately. Hence the need for a long-term solution.

  > How do you make people give a damn?

Maybe we just need to organize those who do. Any suggestions how?

[1] https://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-g...

[2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-96009-3

[hdndjsbbs]

When you frame it like that it sounds like some kind of vanguard of class-conscious people should try to rebel and establish a, I don't know, dictatorship of the proletariat? Maybe they could give themselves some kind of Russian name to sound cool.

[ninjagoo]

> When you frame it like that it sounds like some kind of vanguard of class-conscious people

Less class-conscious and more reality-conscious - there's always going to be a group that's anti-science/anti-rationality because of religion, views, etc. It's when they get into power and stop the progress of science that it becomes an issue.

> should try to rebel and establish a, I don't know, dictatorship of the proletariat?

No need for anything quite as drastic. And that would be effective only for a duration of time until the pendulum swings the other way. Also, I'm sure from the anti-science folks' perspective it's the pro-science folks that are oppressive when the latter are in government.

There must be some long-term solution to insulate science from the swings of the pendulum, without devolving into chaos or oppression. Maybe the internet hive-mind can brainstorm a solution. We also need a forum where like-minded people can have this discussion without getting downvoted into oblivion. Any options?