[yubblegum]

I agree that many people miss the subtle irony of Frank Herbert's books. He seems to be debating himself to a certain extent in that series.

That said, there is no obvious reason to posit that the intergalactic feudal system, CHOAM, or the empire, came to be because of the butlerian jihad. The concrete side effects of the jihad were in fact hyper specialization of cognitive faculties in humans: mentats, guild navigators, and soldiers all possess super human specialized abilities.

[chungusamongus]

Yeah. I'm not saying the jihad was the cause. But elimating AI didn't prevent the feudal system. It didn't really help, in other words. Honestly, I kinda think Herbert just didn't want to have AI or sophisticated robots in his narrative, so he contrived an elaborate reason why that tech doesn't exist.

[yubblegum]

But it did "help". Mentats had supercomputer computation capabilities; navigators folded space and charted non-collision paths; warriors had robocop like abilities. These were developed precisely because the use of thinking machines was forbidden.

I don't think feudalism is going away one way or another. It persists [in various forms] because of certain biological realities, ranging from genetics to loyalty engendered by familial relations. [This is merely an observation.]

In sum, the argument against current AI trends isn't that once addressed we will wake up in utopia. No. The point is that these natural tendencies of humans are hugely amplified and set in generational stone once the elite have control over thinking machines and lord it over a population that has experienced generationally diminished independent cognitive abilities.

p.s. All this somehow reminded me of 'Spock's Brain' episode of Startrek /g Note: the elite there were overcome because Kirk and his landing team were cognitive high performers ..

[keeda]

I suspect the cause-and-effect in creating the narrative is the reverse of what's in the narraitve: Frank Herbert wanted the intricate dynamics of the Guild and Spice and Mentats and exciting close-quarter combat for a more intriguing narrative. But AI and robots made those all obsolete, so he made it disappear with a handwave of "because Butlerian Jihad."

I always thought the Butlerian Jihad was the biggest plot hole in Dune, but I deeply appreciate the world and narrative it enabled.

[chungusamongus]

There are a number of different things being conflated here. My inital statement was just acknowledging the lack of appreciation of the subtext behind the Butlerian Jihad. People are unironically embracing it, which I gather is not really how the event functions in Dune.

At the level of the text, none of those things you mentioned strike me as positive developments. They just siloed computation to a biological track and those biological resources are employed by those in power, which is the same problem in a different form.

This is an aside, but feudalism is not inevitable. The vestiges of it still exist, but capitalism largely upended it.

[ButlerianJihad]

The amusing thing and perhaps the reason I've embraced it as my username, is that people around here are bringing it to life in a certain way.

It may not prove to be effective or as momentous as the fictional one, but it began when I saw stickers slapped onto utility poles that read:

  DEATH TO CLANKERS

  BUTLERIAN JIHAD NOW

And I stopped to read them (because they were posted in a neighborhood where my people's cultural center is) and I pondered the intents and methods of those who were slapping up stickers. Surely this was more than just an in-joke or coy sci-fi reference?

The next time I fell victim to the jihad was with a crop of Lime e-Scooters, again on a block where my people have established businesses. I wanted to rent a Lime. I found one with a full battery. I located it and tried to scan the QR. Guess what? The QR had been sanded completely clean. There was no code, no serial number, nothing to scan and no way to uniquely ID the conveyance. There was only a sticker slapped prominently onto its side:

  DEATH TO CLANKERS

  BUTLERIAN JIHAD NOW

At this point I began to suspect the initial aims and methods of the "real-life Butlerian Jihadis". It is sort of ironic that they should start so small, by denying micro-mobility to innocent consumers, but perhaps they will graduated to lighting Waymos and Teslas on fire.

[chungusamongus]

That is funny. I don't know. I always kind of cringe when I hear the term clankers. I know people often aren't serious but it seems like maybe we shouldn't be trying to invent new slurs.

[throwanem]

Whatever our other differences, I am forced both by honesty and by decency to grant that you are absolutely correct on this score.