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by DrammBA 70 days ago
I have a feeling the real reason is them trying to avoid someone using AI to copyright-wash their product, they're just using security as the excuse.
4 comments

An app like Cal.com can be vibe coded in a few evenings with a Chrome MCP server pointed to their website to figure out all the nooks and crannys. The moat of Cal.com is not the code, it's the users who don't want to migrate.

The real answer is they are likely having a hard time converting people to paid plans

> The moat of Cal.com is not the code, it's the users who don't want to migrate.

That's a very weak moat unless you have something else like the friction of network dependence similar to a social network.

Exactly, that's why most Saas companies are in a very tough position.

You have to bring value that goes beyond the source code and hosting, otherwise your clients are going to vibe code a custom solution instead of paying you.

> otherwise your clients are going to vibe code a custom solution instead of paying you.

How many things do you want to be responsible for? How many vibe coded projects do you want to maintain?

I think this line of reasoning is overblown. Just because you can doesn't mean a significant number of people will. I think the 3D printer comparison is apt.

Individuals and SMB might stick with Saas but those don't pay much.

Enterprise customers have the means to develop in house, those are the customers that will leave. And those are the whales of the Saas business.

They already have the means to develop in house. Why aren't they?
They won’t, because specialization is a key aspect of capitalism.

This is why companies outsource anything. Google, Inc. is big enough to own farms and ranches to grow the food eaten in its cafeterias. They could make trucks to transport that food. They could operate factories to make cutlery, etc. Why do they instead choose to pay layers of margins to layers of middlemen?

Absurd example? How about Apple? They outsource production of their chips, instead of capturing the margin they are currently gifting to their partners. Why?

Delta Airlines doesn’t operate oil fields or even refineries even though a major cost of their operations is jet fuel. Why?

Once you can reason through these very simple examples, you will understand why enterprises are unlikely to walk away from SaaS.

> How many vibe coded projects do you want to maintain?

here comes the next SaaS idea - vibe coded services as a service. You tell what service you want, may be point out a couple examples, and you get that service vibe coded and hosted for you for a small monthly fee!

I think you missed the point. Being responsible for a vibe coded product means also being able to support it and handle outages etcetera.

So, no, hosting LLM output is not the same as being responsible

Sunk cost is sufficient friction for most people even without network dependence.
For a meeting scheduler site? I feel like you're overestimating the capabilities of something that is akin to college graduate project.

This company does not seem healthy at all:

https://getlatka.com/companies/calcom

I agree with the other poster that mention this is likely a publicity stunt but all it's really showing is that VC is still incredibly stupid with their money. All the more reason to seize it from them then properly fund useful software and not subsidize vanity projects for stanford grads.

About the friction, not the capabilities...I haven't switched off my biz calendar/appointment provider I'm paying for even though I've kinda outgrown it.

I wouldn't under estimate switching friction.

How much does your friction avoidance cost, if you don't mind my asking?
idk my mom still pays for her aol email account
Email is actually a excellent example of something with network dependence. Changing email providers requires that you change your email address too (unless you own and use your own domain). An address change causes friction from having to update the network of contacts and services which used your old email address.
Best business insight posted on HN. This. Your code is not your business.
For real, one of the reasons I use cal.com is because it's open source. Time to migrate.
Same. I expect in a misguided effort to save customers, they are going to lose a lot more. My two companies will be canceling over this.
> An app like Cal.com can be vibe coded in a few evenings

Do it then

Coding something vs maintaining it can be quite different things.
For many use cases, maintenance doesn't matter. At this point, using LLMs to one-shot a tool/service for a single use or time-limited use case is becoming more appealing than signing up with some vendor, even for free.
If it's got the lifespan of a short lived spreadsheet, maybe.

People can one shot to the moon, if the input and improvements can't be sustained, it goes sideways. Still an exciting space.

May be trying creating one and see how much effort and time is required to clone such a functionality to a proper working state! Something for personal use can be created in about 5-10 days, but even then the skill that is required and the amount of tokens to burn, hosting and security etc, will easily kill. This is exactly the thought process of many, but it will surely kill many opensource contributors. I've stopped committing anything to any open source repos as a personal choice. I do not want to train a LLM which will eventually create more slop and headaches since for me, time is the only important factor which holds the maximum value! Nothing else!
At risk of self promotion, I think more people should adopt something like the Ship of Theseus license (https://github.com/tilework-tech/nori-skillsets/pull/465/cha...). It's not obvious if this will patch the clean room hole in licensing, but I'd rather see it play out in court than assume opensource is just fully dead
I am incredibly skeptical that license is legally meaningful. (but obligatory IANAL.)

Generally speaking it is very very difficult to have a license redefine legal terms. Either this theseus copy is legally a derivative work or it isn't, and text of a license is going to do at most very very little to change that.

> It's not obvious if this will patch the clean room hole in licensing, but I'd rather see it play out in court than assume opensource is just fully dead

Are you willing to bear the burden of litigation?

I cannot imagine that license addendum is legally enforceable (let alone provable) in most jurisdictions on earth but it is interesting.
As long as it doesn't cost me anything, I'd like to see it play out in court and know for sure.

But that is very unlikely even if everyone adopted it, which they won't.

I mean you might as well write "any competing project will be considered infringement". It doesn't cost you anything either.
IANAL, but I don't think there is any "clean room hole in licensing": licensing is downstream of copyright law, and clean-room reverse engineering, if done properly, results in products that do not infringe the copyright of the originating work to begin with, so the license therefore never applies to them.

The "Ship of Theseus" license you've linked to attempts to define for itself what constitutes a derivative work, but what is and is not a derivative work is determined by copyright law itself, and there's no concept of imposing licensing conditions on works that your copyright never extended to in the first place.

Simply put, if something isn't infringing your copyright under the criteria established by the law, then your permission was never needed to do it in the first place, so the conditions under which you would or would not be willing offer that permission are irrelevant.

I like the spirit but I do find it a bit ironic to include it in a project where almost every commit is made by an LLM
I don't think you understand how copyright works.

Copyright can only deny the right to make copies.

If someone spends years using your software and they have learned a mental model of how your software works, they can build an exact replica and there is nothing you can do about that since there is no copy you can sue over. Said user is also allowed to use AI tools to aid in the process.

What you want is an EULA, which is a contract users explicitly have to agree with. A license file only grants access or the right to copy, it doesn't affect usage of your software.

>I don't think you understand

Whether or not this is technically correct, a comment that begins this way is unlikely to be persuasive.

Exactly this! Classic open source bait and switch.
Called this 9 months ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44559840

"AI slop is rapidly destroying the WWW, most of the content is becoming more and more low-quality and difficult to tell if its true or hallucinated. Pre-AI web content is now more like the golden-standard in terms of correctness, browsing the Internet Archive is much better. This will only cause content to go behind pay-walls, allot of open-source projects will be closed source not only because of the increased work maintainers have to do to not only review but also audit patches for potential AI hallucinations but also because their work is being used to train LLMs and re-licensed to proprietary."

Typical FUD.

Replace AI with "open source and Linux", and "open source" with "Windows" in the statements. That's what Microsoft's PR team would have said about open source and Linux about 20 years back in the 2000s.

After the unsuccessful FUD era, now Microsoft is running away with Linux by running its Windows alongside via WSL to combat MacOS Unix-like popularity, and due to Linux and open source dominance in the cloud OS demographic.

Even worse, in that Microsoft's FUD was mostly right. The joke about Open Source being communism played out straight - FOSS pretty much destroyed the ability to make money on software products, accelerating transition to SaaS models where you can carefully seek rent from the shelter of your secure company servers (later, cloud), and that is in large part responsible for modern surveillance economy - as it turns out, some SaaS segments decayed to "free with ads", where - much like with OSS and locally-run software - you cannot compete on price with free.