[CalRobert]

As immigrants with no local network, having kids is basically putting yourself under house arrest for a decade or so. You can post bail (pay a babysitter) for occasional reprieve. I mean sure you can go do outings with kids, but for most of them, do you really want to? I know mine aren't particularly enthralled by trips to the Rijksmuseum.

I don't think this is how humans usually raised kids...

[ray_v]

We're in the same boat. Feels like mostly our society doesn't value having children - it's by and large not a very well supported activity. Even more so if you don't have immediate family to help support you.

[CalRobert]

Where’d you go? We were told Ireland values children but that didn’t match our experience (we moved to the Netherlands which has been better at least)

[kakacik]

Dont go to Switzerland. I can sing praise on this country for hours, but supporting families with kids aint one of the positives, in contrary.

So far the worst aspect of being and staying here (apart from one specific immigration bureaucrat in Geneva, but thats a long and very specific story). Even rather backwardish France has this aspect figured out much better.

[CalRobert]

Beautiful country but as far as I’m aware pretty cold and socially hostile to outsiders… Too bad it pays so much better than most of Europe

[ray_v]

Not far ... just the other end of Ohio (SW Ohio from NE Ohio) ... But very much on our own

[mothballed]

If you go to the third world kids are all running in the streets while both parents work and grandparents not doing fuck all to watch them either. The most practical answer is to relax negligence laws back to a sane level where as long as you're not torturing them and they are fed, "society" stays the fuck out of the punishment process.

[CalRobert]

I’d rather they not get run over… but generally agree with you